the reckoning with Monica Kumar & Mike Rusch.

the reckoning with Monica Kumar and Mike Rusch.episode content warning.

[00:00:00] mike rusch.: Before we begin, I need to tell you what is in this episode. About an hour in, you're gonna hear five recordings from pulpits in Benton and Washington County. We are not naming the churches. We did not interview them, and in this episode, we will tell you why. What you will hear are sermons that are dehumanizing to our neighbors, people of other faiths, queer and transgender people, including children, immigrants, people on one side of the political line.

[00:00:26] mike rusch.: It is being said from pulpits to full rooms by people who go home afterward and live next door to the people that they are describing. While we don't wanna play it, we are making the decision because it's already what is being said every week in this region, and we think you should know.

[00:00:42] mike rusch.: We are not playing it to amplify it. If you are the people being described, this is going to be hard to hear. You can skip that section. The timestamp in the show notes and nothing before it or after it depends on you having heard it. This episode contains adult subject matter and other content that may be disturbing to the listeners.

[00:01:00] mike rusch.: the underview is committed to honest storytelling about a place, and sometimes that means sitting with hard things. Please take care of yourself as you listen

episode intro.

[00:02:01] mike rusch.: You're listening to "The Underview," an exploration in the shaping of our place. My name is Mike Rusch, and today there is no guest at the table. It is simply Monica and me, and a reckoning ahead of us. Let me take you back to where we started. On the second Sunday of April, we released our first episode, and in it we said that before the towns and the courthouses and the schools, there was a congregation.

[00:02:22] mike rusch.: And the first thing that it built was a structure of meaning. And then I said the other half of that, that the same congregations built a structure of power. The church as a structure of both meaning and power.

[00:02:33] mike rusch.: I said both things are true, and holding both is hard. That was the whole season in one sentence, and we did not know it yet.

[00:02:40] mike rusch.: What we said we would do was look at the faith of Northwest Arkansas, not any one person's faith. We were careful about that, and we stayed careful. We wanted to know what a tradition carries, what an institution decides, what an ideology orders. We said we are not here to evaluate anyone's relationship with God.

[00:02:55] mike rusch.: We said it three times in episode three, and we meant it. And then we went and we did it, 25 rooms since April. Baptist and Methodist and Free Will Baptist and Primitive Baptist, Catholic, Episcopal, a mosque, a Hindu temple, a Buddhist temple, sanctuaries and fellowship halls, and a couple of rooms with folding chairs.

[00:03:13] mike rusch.: We tried to ask the same questions in every one of them, and then we sent those questions ahead so no one would be surprised.

[00:03:19] mike rusch.: And while we were doing that, as you can probably imagine, we received a little feedback.

[00:03:24] mike rusch.: Here is the tension that I want us all to hold today because it's the same one that the show has been built on since the very beginning. This is a place, a real one, with county lines and church parking lots, and a city council that meets on Tuesdays.

[00:03:37] mike rusch.: Belonging here is not an abstraction. It is decided. Somebody decides who is welcome at the table, who stands at the pulpit, who gets appointed to fill an empty seat. Those decisions are made by people in buildings that you have probably driven by a thousand times.

[00:03:52] mike rusch.: The question of the season is who is deciding that belonging, and on what authority? And how do faith communities shape the place that we live? How does what happens there on Sunday become policy on Monday?

[00:04:04] mike rusch.: Today, we'll walk through this in order. We're gonna talk about the critique that came the very first week, read in full, and what Monica and I make of it. What is it actually like to walk into twenty-five rooms? Why we asked the questions the way we did and refused to argue. Some voices think that was the wrong call, and you're gonna hear them in their own voices, and you'll hear our answers. There were people who would not talk to us, and we think some of that was fear, and some of it was something else.

[00:04:30] mike rusch.: And then the hardest part of the hour, we talk about the churches we didn't talk to. We give you a sample of why. We play them so that you can hear what we heard. We do not name them, and then we tell you the number and the question that we cannot put down, and who are we bringing to this table to help us answer it?

[00:04:47] mike rusch.: Two of the voices you are about to hear came through at the button on the underview.com homepage that says, "Send us a voice message." We do listen to all of those message, and if today leaves you with something, and it probably will, that button is still there. All right, we've got a whole lot to work through today.

[00:05:02] mike rusch.: Let's get into it

discussion.

[00:05:07] mike rusch.: All right, Monica, this is our reckoning episode, and I think we've got quite a number of things that we have the opportunity to kinda walk through. And so I would love to maybe start with the beginning, if that's okay . Before we had posted any episodes with any faith leaders out, out of the first episode there were some comments that came back to us that, that were shared with us about how the whole season's framing was being looked at from a certain maybe demographic, if you will.

[00:05:38] mike rusch.: And I'd like to read that real quick, and then maybe, Monica, we can just kinda respond to that and kinda process that. We've held this since the very beginning. We knew this when it first started, and I think now it feels like this is part of our reckoning.

[00:05:51] mike rusch.: And so, yeah, after the first episode which was kind of Monica and I's narrative and our introduction about what the season was going to be about we had forwarded to us a message of some of some comment about the season, and this is what it said.

[00:06:05] mike rusch.: This is quoting someone who was commenting on our first episode, and it said, "As Christians, we should always test what we hear, not just accept it because it sounds thoughtful or well-produced." At that point, I was like, "Oh, thank you. It's well-produced."

[00:06:18] Monica Kumar: You should definitely take that as a compliment, mate

[00:06:21] Mike: I was like thank you. That's very kind."

[00:06:23] Monica Kumar: You're a producer

[00:06:25] Mike: I know. I've never thought of myself that way, but I was like, "Oh, thank you." So it started this. It said,

[00:06:29] Mike: "This podcast is ultimately one man's perspective on faith in Northwest Arkansas. It raises real history, but it also frames the church primarily through power, harm, and cultural influence, which is a very incomplete picture of the gospel. Yes, church has had failures. Scripture is clear about human sin. But the message of Christ is not defined by the worst actions of people. It's defined by truth, redemption, and transformation. also important to understand who is shaping this conversation. Monica Kumar, who is helping with this series, works in, quote, unquote, "belonging and equity" spaces through the Northwest Arkansas Council and and similar initiatives. That lens naturally influences how faith is discussed, often focusing more on social systems than on biblical authority. None of this means that we shouldn't listen, but we should listen with discernment. Faith isn't just a cultural force or a community tool, it's truth, and truth doesn't change depending on who is telling the story."

[00:07:25] Mike: And so this was the initial post, and I would largely, and say in reading that I was like, "amen", Like, I didn't have any ad-ad-adversion to those. I was like, "I'm just glad people are listening and paying attention and willing to lean into, these kind of conversations." And so from that kind of original post, I'm like, "Okay, great.

[00:07:46] Mike: Maybe we have the opportunity to really dig into a conversation."

[00:07:50] Mike: Obviously we knew where we were going this season,

[00:07:53] Monica Kumar: Yes

[00:07:53] Mike: at this point in the season, you've heard so many opinions, so it's not just my opinion about what's happening here. We've tried to give space for everyone, from all the kind of representative faith traditions of Northwest Arkansas, to have a voice and to have space to speak their opinions, right? I don't know, I'm biased, but Monica, I feel like we've done that. And we've learned a lot through this process. I think what troubles me, though, is the comments from that post that we've read. Some of those comments included,

[00:08:22] Mike: "I could only read so far because the whole time I was reading I felt like I was trying to clean up a pile of shit. Just a couple of deceived, indoctrinated people that desperately need the Lord. Prayers that their eyes opened."

[00:08:34] Mike: Comments, "Clearly an agenda to paint local Christians in a negative light."

[00:08:38] Mike: Other comments, "That was the first wound, and everything that follows after that was the echo." Yes, that's, those are my words.

[00:08:44] Mike: " This statement from the podcast frames Christianity's arrival as morally damaging at its core, and everything after that flows from that harm."

[00:08:52] Mike: Or this statement... we cannot talk about religion without naming it as a system of both meaning and power. Those are my words. Or this statement that reduces our faith to the institution and the power structure.

[00:09:03] Mike: I was quoted again, "How did a faith rooted in love become a faith rooted in fear? And then the comment after that was, and this one assumes something has gone wrong, and it's currently distorted."

[00:09:13] Mike: And then again I'm quoted a lot. This is probably at least, I don't know that anybody's ever listened to me this long. But I was quoted again with,

[00:09:19] Mike: "We weren't debating paint we were debating whose version of God should direct the affairs of our city." And it refers to me, it says, "He was for the art mural, and there is no, quote, unquote, 'version of God,' only one true God. Jesus said, 'I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

[00:09:35] Mike: And, I we just, we knew that right out of the gate, Monica. And both of us are named here, although you are put... I would argue, I this has been a conversation from a podcast that we've been having for a while, so , I've received enough flack and congratulations and all of those things to okay, whatever.

[00:09:53] Mike: My immediate reaction, if I'm honest, Monica, was like, "Hold it. Whoa whoa. I didn't ask Monica to become a co-host to this be the first experience and response to this conversation." And so I was like immediately, I was like mortified, that I was like, "Oh my gosh, what have I brought Monica into," or, "What have I invited her into, in a way that, that is now going to just judge outright before we've even gotten to any of these conversations?"

[00:10:19] Mike: I don't know if anyone who wrote those is still listening today. I hope they are. and, I think I appreciate those kinds of feedback. I don't appreciate some of the disparaging, obviously. But I think, Monica, y- you were named here, and I would love to know kinda what your reaction was right out of the gate to kinda read some of these words about you and your role and your authority and maybe even y- your standing in being able to be a part of this conversation,

[00:10:43] Monica Kumar: yeah. Thank you so much, Mike, for that, that sort of pathway into this conversation what we're thinking about as a reckoning and, you know. You know, to be really clear, absolutely I'm not a biblical expert. I have no biblical training. I've studied, you know, religion and faith but completely as a, as a, you know, someone who's interested in it, certainly not academically. I have no degree. I have no seminary studying. And I think that, th- this is exactly why I wanted to engage in these conversations, and I think there's a conflation between faith and Christianity, and one version of Christianity in that, sharing that- I was hoping that we would be able to unravel and, and reveal as, as we were going through this season.

[00:11:41] Monica Kumar: And so, no, I have no biblical training. No, I'm not someone who comes from a Christian perspective, but I hope that I never said I was. I'm a person of deep, deep faith. I have I have never, ever, ever I think shared anything but that. And while I've grappled with my religion... with my relationship, excuse me, with God and certainly have and then turned away from it when I was younger, I have come back to it in such a strong, deep, and pers- like, completely persuaded place.

[00:12:15] Monica Kumar: And so for me, I think if that wasn't made clear, I hope it has been through the season, but if it wasn't, I want to sort of underscore that. And I think that, you know like personally, I suppose I have to answer personally, I have such a strong sense of my faith and my spirituality and my relationship with God, that I think there's space for everybody to have the same.

[00:12:40] Monica Kumar: And I, I don't doubt anybody's relationship to their faith or God or Christ or, you know, or however they want to show it or, or share it. And, and for me, actually, all those different ways of sharing spirituality and faith make me feel stronger in my own faith, but also more convicted that there is, like, faith has a place in the world and in the conversation.

[00:13:07] Monica Kumar: So that's, that's kind of, I'm hoping, because that was an initial reaction, I'm hoping that they did stay with our conversations. I'm hoping that they did listen to a- you know, as many of our, of our episodes as they felt were interesting. I'm not gonna assume they listened to all of them. And I hope even if they only list- even if people only listened to the ones from a Christian tradition, I hope that they heard the nuance and the, and the magnitude of what Christianity and the faith of Christianity is and has and, and the, the various steps and layers and multitudes contained within Personally, I've you know, never... I think I heard some, a, a little bit of anxiety in your, in your framing in that, you know, h- what did you invite me into? I mean, I didn't, you didn't invite me into anything that I want- didn't wanna be invited into. And I think that this is, like, for me, this is the work of, of anti-polarization. This is the work of, of connection and and thinking and grappling together.

[00:14:19] Monica Kumar: So I would say this is exactly what I thought I was being invited into. Does my, did my heart hurt a tiny bit? For sure, but that's me personally, and a lot of things make my heart hurt on a daily basis, but I don't turn away from them

[00:14:36] Mike: Yeah, I think those comments kinda like, okay, it maybe woke us up to the reality that A, there really are people and there are consequences to the conversations that we are having, right? And I think it's fair to ask people that listen to this series of conversations to have discernment, right? We're trying to have discernment, and so I don't have any problem with that. I think, although when it falls into the stereotypes, i when it falls into the, to the ideas that, you know, what we're doing is, or we're "indoctrinated people desperately in need of the Lord ," like, I don't know how to reconcile with that because I think if people listen to our earlier episodes about our own stories and our own backgrounds, Monica, you and I were very clear where we come from a faith perspective. And clearly they didn't listen to those, and so there's a critique on the labeling and what the appearance of things looks like and really the avoidance of any depth of nuance. And gosh, if I were to say anything about our culture, I feel like this is one of the biggest issues we have, is that we've stopped listening to people. I think the person who put the original quote together or the original post together was deeply listening, and so I appreciate that. All the comments that came afterwards are people who are not listening. They're entrenched in a position, and this is why, opinion, we had to have these conversations I could see myself in these comments, that I've lived here long enough to have opinions and stereotypes of certain, traditions and I knew that was gonna be a trap for me. And so our first response and we'll talk about this in a little bit about our method, was like I just have to listen and be still and not apply whatever framework I have into that conversation until we've been able to sit with people and see them as human beings first. And we used this term early on at the Imago Dei.

[00:16:24] Mike: What does it look like to look at someone as in, as, as they are created in the image of God? And we walked into, I can honestly say, and Monica, I know this is true of you, too, we walked into every room and every conversation we sat in with that posture and that belief and that dignity extending. Whether I was gonna agree with them or not, they were first and foremost created in the image of God, and that was enough, full stop. And so, know, I think that's the hardest part was that's not returned to you. And I realize people don't always understand what's going on behind the scenes, but, like, when it's not returned to you, it's yeah, it causes us to slow down and to, yeah, to have to react to that in many ways.

[00:17:04] Monica Kumar: I think, you know, we talked about listening, I think, in one of the episodes and, and there's a, a listening to learn and a listening to really, like, understand, and then there's a listening to respond. And, and, you know, th- that's, there are so many layers to what it means to listen and which layer you want to sit at and go into.

[00:17:27] Monica Kumar: And I think that the listening of discernment and, and questioning and thoughtfulness and provocation that the initial commentator put in the room, you know, I, I welcome that as you said. And I think some of the comments and the responses, especially those with expletives, I just, I don't know what you're listening to, and I don't know how you're listening

[00:17:50] Mike: And I think too, and not to be stuck here in this space 'cause we have other things we wanna talk through, but, , we cannot talk about religion without naming it as a system of both meaning and power,

[00:18:00] Monica Kumar: Siloam

[00:18:01] Mike: not about someone's faith, right? This is a, that's why we issued the the short episode about the terms is because we wanted to be very clear that we were not here to judge anyone's faith. Faith is not reducible to those components of that. And so when we talk about religion and we talk about the institutions of the churches or faith traditions it, this is not about a person.

[00:18:26] Mike: And I think maybe sometimes these comments can be a little bit revealing around our culturally sometimes and this is true of me. I'll speak for myself first. It is hard to tell these things apart. We have so attached ourselves, myself included, into institutions and, theology and religion and and so it does cause us pause when we can't pull them apart to be able to reckon with them individually.

[00:18:47] Mike: And so I think the, the first part of those comments I would say we were read correctly. These are the questions that we were asking. I'm thankful people were listening and it's hard though when you're immediately put into the, to the corner of that. And are, do you have any more comments about that or do you wanna move to the next one?

[00:19:03] Monica Kumar: No, I just, I think that the conflation is, is the complication, you know?

discovery process.

[00:19:09] Mike: Good. That's very good. So the next thing that we talked about that's kinda come in was really kind of our, almost our discovery process, right?

[00:19:17] Monica Kumar: Yes

[00:19:19] mike rusch.: about 25 different rooms over the course of this season since April, and we tried to walk in, as I said, with this idea of the Imago Dei and being open and not letting whatever or stereotypes, kinda come with us, which I wanna be honest, is really hard. And we did our research. There's no question about that. We, We listened to so many sermons. We listened to every, to each pastor. We wanted to know what their tone was and their kindness and what they were teaching about, and a- all these different qualifications that we were looking at. And so we really did. I feel like I had a real confident understanding of who we were walking into the room with and what they had been talking about and where their values sat. And that was intentional, and I think during these conversations it became very clear that even with whatever stereotypes or biases we were trying to leave behind, even if we brought them into the room none of those would fit into the boxes that we would've assigned for them. They just, they wouldn't fit . The stereos I held in my mind, they didn't fit to anybody we talked to any way, shape, or form. And we thought we knew how the conversations would go, and I think I was wrong almost every time, as, as has been the pattern for this entire this entire podcast. And so I think got a great diversity, not of the biggest voices, and we got diversity of voices that speak to community and speak to understanding and belonging. a- and I think you'll hear about this a little bit more I wasn't surprised necessarily walking into the rooms. I was actually I walk away after 25 conversations going, think there's some hope here," right?

[00:20:54] mike rusch.: "I really think there is." was me walking into the room as a white male , knowing that I would probably be most likely welcomed into all these rooms. And Monica, maybe we can pause here for a minute, and as you think about as you walked into those rooms, how did you feel when you walked into each one of those rooms?

[00:21:12] mike rusch.: And if any examples stood out, you're more than welcome to share. You don't have to. But what was it like for you walking into each one of these conversations and to kinda discern what direction these conversations were gonna go?

[00:21:23] Monica Kumar: Yeah, I really appreciate that that question, Mike. And, and yes, we did our homework and we did, you know, we listened to sermons and we read, read up on the institutions. And then I think for me, it was really important that we did what we asked of our listeners, which was when we walked into the room, just be in, be in community and be in real life with another person, and have a conversation about, about faith and, and, and God and spirituality and what, how, what do we want our community to look like?

[00:21:59] Monica Kumar: And, you know, I, I'm, I failed many times, I'm sure, at that. And there are questions when I walked out thinking, "Oh, I wish I'd asked that. Wish I hadn't. Not sure if I asked that correctly." And I will also say that, you know, very much similar to your experience, l- so many ideas and assumptions that I tried not to walk in with, but obviously did because I'm a biased human were blown out of the water.

[00:22:26] Monica Kumar: And just I ha- you know, like we talked about this. Like, there's a reckoning you have to do after the time, after the session, that you're just kind of, like, taking what you thought it was gonna be like, what you read it was gonna be like, and then what the experience of being in the room was and connecting with this human, and how you reconcile those.

[00:22:49] Monica Kumar: And I, I, you know I, I mean, you were there, so you know that I had an incredibly moving experience like that with probably the one ... And I, I just don't want to name the person because it's so obvious that it's one of the people that we, that we spoke to, but with probably one of the people that I would have put, like, on the far end of the spectrum of who, who I understood. And I walked in with an incredibly academic understanding of, you know, their tradition, who they were, what I thought they believed. And then Mike, you know. You were there. We had to stop the recording because both of us were so emotionally bound by and connected into a experience that this person shared in the room that was so human, and I'm not naming the person, so I'll say it, incredibly traumatic and life-changing.

[00:23:48] Monica Kumar: And we had not the same experience, but the same, the s- like, we had similar roots of the same experience. And honestly, Th- We had so many incredible moments through, through our season, and so many amazing conversations, and so many aha moments, and I don't ... I think, Mike, I might have talked about this. I mean, this might be the 20th time I'm talking to you about this. You know I bring it up all the time. Yeah, it cha- it, it changed my life And changed who I am. And when I see people like this person on TV or I hear voices like this person of this tradition, I just remember this incredibly human experience that we have shared.

[00:24:33] Monica Kumar: And it just softens , my ears , to what is being said, makes my heart more alert to thinking, "Well, where is, where is there a place for connection? Where is there a place for conversation?" You know, and maybe there isn't always, but I think this season has helped me see that I thought I was somebody who always looked for that, and I dug and found that there's more places and more nuance for that.

[00:25:02] Mike: Monica, I'm curious as you're talking when you think about, like we walked in with a filter or a lens of faith, right? How does faith work itself out in the world? That's not how the, that's not the lens that you left with, right? Like after that, the interaction with a human being who you understood and knew the story and had a, a, a genuine human connection with, where did faith fit within all of that at that point ?

[00:25:25] Mike: Where did theology and religion and, institutions and power and meaning, these things that we were building this season on, where did that fit in the room when you were able to connect with this person just at a very human level?

[00:25:41] Monica Kumar: I mean, there was, there was no institution and systems of power and, you know, difference of opinion. There was no space for that. But I'll tell you what the room was full of. The room was full of God , and faith in the way that you and I have talked about it, and a spiritual sense of deep connection and love that that I think is exactly what we're talking, it's exactly what we're talking about. I mean, faith was in the room. God was in the room, and I think both of us were saved by that in the experience and the aftermath of the experience. I mean, it's what both of us talked about as being the guiding light to get us through those experiences. And then now it was the thing that was standing up to say, "Oh, I s- like, I see that about you, and you see it about me, and power and institution and religion and systems can't hold a candle to that

[00:26:40] Mike: Yeah, you know, it's obviously that, that story is yours, and I think some people they catch me sometimes in passing and they'll be like, " I really loved listening to that person. What was that like?" And they've, so they've probably heard me say this before, but like sometimes the most powerful moments of all of these conversations happen, after the microphone gets turned off or when we have to pause, that most people don't get to see or hear uh, just out of honoring privacy and humanity and confidentiality. And it's one of those moments that really made me sit back and say, "If we can see the other person across the table from us, for who they are as a human being and share their joy, be willing to step into their struggles," like all of these conversations about faith, I think that's where we find out if faith is real or not.

[00:27:29] Monica Kumar: Yes

[00:27:30] Mike: where we find out if all the things that we subscribe to or all the things we say we believe, it's in those moments that the reality of those things is either true or false. And I can't think but in, in that moment as, as I sat as an outside observer, like that was true. And that was real. And that was God. And that was faith. And that is what at the end of the day if we can find that in each other, there is great hope for who we are.

[00:28:01] Monica Kumar: To be clear, because, you know, I'm not sharing a lot of details about the actual experience or who was in the room. But to be clear, you know, we're talking about two people. I'm obviously racially Indian and a fem- and I identify as female. We're talking about two people who grew up with such different life experiences.

[00:28:21] Monica Kumar: Like, you could not take two people more polar opposite in terms of race, in terms of upbringing, in terms of political persuasion, in terms of religious beliefs, in terms of faith, in terms of race. I mean, they're just ... Y- you couldn't ... I, I don't ... Which is why I walked in with a very academic understanding of what the conversation was gonna, was gonna be like.

[00:28:44] Monica Kumar: And, and I think I even said to you when we walked in, "Mike, I'm just gonna let you lead, and I'll, I'll kind of be in the background."

[00:28:52] Monica Kumar: And yeah.

[00:28:52] Mike: a

[00:28:53] Monica Kumar: Yeah. Yeah

[00:28:54] Mike: was, a profound experience. And I think that process of discovery of not just the people we spoke with, but our own souls was profound.

method.

[00:29:01] Mike: Monica, let's talk about our method a little bit. This will

[00:29:04] Monica Kumar: Yes

[00:29:04] Mike: a shorter section, but I wanna be clear because I think we have received some comments and feedback about the way we've walked through these conversations, which is totally fine. We've asked for that feedback.

[00:29:15] Monica Kumar: Yes

[00:29:16] Mike: talk a little bit about why we did what we did.

[00:29:19] Mike: Number one, we wanted to try to keep the questions as similar across all faith traditions as possible. First section about who the pastor or the faith leader was, the second section about their faith community, and then the third section about what does it look like for that faith to, tradition to really work itself out into the world.

[00:29:38] Mike: W- we wanted to ask questions, and we didn't wanna critique, we didn't want to place our judgment, we didn't wanna argue, we didn't want to establish who was right and who was wrong. And so the, the format that we walk through from a process perspective is called a narrative format interview. And that, the, the narrative format is really to let someone tell their story. within that we're not necessarily to be there to interrupt. We are there to ask more questions so that more of their story can be told, so that we can have a greater understanding of who they are. And we wanna, in many ways, we wanna keep asking. We want that person to keep talking. We wanna come out on the other side understanding something about them or their tradition or their faith or how they see their faith in the world in a way that we did not anticipate or we didn't understand before. And so every guest got pretty much the same questions.

[00:30:30] Mike: We sent those questions to all of them ahead of time, so there was no surprises walking into the room. And, it was really beautiful. And so I do wanna speak to a little bit, because this will set up kind of our next method or next section that we talk about,

[00:30:45] Monica Kumar: Yes

[00:30:47] Mike: Intentionally, this is not a neutrality, right? This is it's the only way that we can really lay out 25 conversations side by side and try to interpret how they mean anything together. If we were all over the board on questions and responses, we're not gonna get to our thesis, if you will, at the end of the season about what did all of that mean? And so one of the things that we, we're intentional about is that We know that when someone answers a question, that's a finding. That tells us something in the way that they respond. But there's a flip side to that coin, and the flip side is that when someone doesn't say something, when there's absence or silence or not engaged in that certain topic, that's a finding also. Even when nobody says something, we're observing and holding intention what they say and what they don't say, With the understanding that both of those sides of the coin actually reveal something about the human and the faith tradition and the way that they think that their faith works themselves out in the world.

[00:31:48] Mike: And so we, trust me, we knew who we were sitting with. We were very intentional every time about who we were walking to the room We read their websites and their statements of faith, and what each church had published about membership and marriage and gender and identity. We listened to these sermons, hundreds of them across the region over many months. So I wanna maybe for those listening, like there were no surprises for us about what we were walking into the room, and what silence and/or voice maybe would add to those things. And so the question was, is would they say it out loud?

[00:32:21] Mike: Would they say the same things that they said in their faith traditions, in their sermons? Would they say those with us in the context that would make sense, right? so we even if we disagreed with someone, we did not decline to sit with them because we disagreed with them. Because we did. We sat with people we disagreed all with all season, right? But this isn't about us. This is about the faith in Northwest Arkansas, and so our opinions in those spaces is not what we were trying to do.

[00:32:47] Mike: The only line that we would not cross is that if someone was actively or had dehumanized someone in a sermon, we were not gonna give the microphone to anybody was gonna be active in their dehumanization of people in, in the way that we thought would be harmful within that interview, which is a big risk to take, first of all. I wanna be real clear, like it's a real hard thing to navigate through that.

[00:33:08] Mike: I wanna be real clear on kinda what our method was and why we did it that way because, one, one of the things, maybe Monica, you can speak to this better than I can. One of the things that we knew is if on, interview number three, we started critiquing people or challenging people or demanding some sort of answer, we would've had about a three-episode season, right? And so the goal was to be able to sit down with everyone, which means we had to respect and find common ground and understand how to walk through this stuff.

[00:33:38] Mike: Yeah, Monica, maybe I'll let you just kinda speak into this space about what that method was and how we thought about it and maybe what that meant to you.

[00:33:45] Monica Kumar: Yeah, no, I really appreciate that, Mike. I mean, I, I think that when we, when you first asked me, or when we first even discussed the possibility of this season and talking about faith, , it was very clear to me that I didn't want to hear voices echoed about the, ab- from a perspective and opinions about things that you and I both agree with, or the p- the lens that you and I see the world, or the lens that we see religion or politics or institutional power.

[00:34:16] Monica Kumar: And I think it was really important to me that we didn't do that, that we didn't create an echo chamber. And at the same time, it was really important that we We, you know, we invited people to, into, to a table. We invited people into a space, and It was really important to me that we were respectful, that we were thoughtful, that we allowed that person to, yes express themselves, share their faith tradition, share, share what, what you know, what their belief system looked like and where their values and their perspective about community came from.

[00:34:52] Monica Kumar: And I didn't ... Like, it was never a goal, and I think you and I discussed this, it was never a goal to attack or hear, listen to argue. That was never something that I ever thought we were going to do, and I think you and I agreed on that from the outset. It, I think that it, for me, also, like, if I think about myself as a listener of podcasts or I think about myself as a reader of books, I want the author or the podcast host to assume that I can hear words in silence, to assume that I can you know, that I have, that I, I have discernment, to assume that I can understand what is being said, what is not being said, the nuance , , of, you know, language, the nuance of passion, the nuance of, feeling and emotion.

[00:35:42] Monica Kumar: And, and I, and I want, I want podcasters and authors and filmmakers to give me that respect, and I think it was really important for, I'll speak for myself, but I know your podcast, and I know that this is ... You do nothing but show respect and honor the intelligence and the capacity of, of our listeners.

[00:36:06] Monica Kumar: And so yeah, this was never meant to be my op- I mean, people know my opinion on things. I'm not a reticent person. I'm not someone, you know, who, who's, like, quiet or silent in any way. I think even, you know, even that, you know, the comments that we talked about earlier, like, it's clear who I am, what I do, my work, and what I stand for.

[00:36:30] Monica Kumar: But in those rooms, that was, we were inviting someone in to share about their faith, their tradition, their history, their background, share who they were and why they came and how they came to be where they are now, and how they're building the world using the values and, and the building blocks of what, you know, what, what has come before them.

[00:36:53] Monica Kumar: I wanted all of that in the room, and I wanted , our guest to feel like they could share that in a respectful way, but to be able to share that so that our listeners could listen And decide for themselves. , And my other concern was if, and we were never gonna- I mean, I would never have agreed to do this if this was our approach, but if we had sat there to listen to attack, we wouldn't have people would not have come into our room. And so then we're reinforcing exactly what, some people have accused us of doing at the beginning, which is you just want to create these polarized rooms and echo chambers of people who believe and, you know, and see the world as you do. And maybe people will still feel that way, but I will say that with my ha- you know, with my hand on my heart and with God in my soul, that I was trying in every way to shift away from that and to open the space up and a, you know, a loving space up for people to be able to show up and bring their tradition into the room.

[00:38:00] Monica Kumar: And then for our listeners to lovingly you know, critique, understand, discern what they heard

[00:38:09] Mike: Yeah, I this is something that I think is really important because know, w- we know what the extremes sound like, right? And we're about to talk about that in a moment. And the question is, like, where do we, where can we find middle ground? Where is the public square? Where do we put all of our labels down to sit in a room across the table and have a conversation?

[00:38:32] Mike: I'll be honest with you I think 90% of the reason we d- we have these conversations is to be able to have an excuse to sit with people that I wouldn't normally sit with, to ask questions we wouldn't normally ask, to learn things that I would never learn, and to be exposed to someone else's story and reality that still, regardless of how I feel about it, that Imago Dei, is that image of God. And it's a challenge for me because I, I realize we have to practice what we preach in these conversations and that the challenge of being able to do that across, now three seasons almost been extraordinarily difficult, but this season m- probably more than anything. But Goodness, the joy and the grace and the beauty of people that I have found every single time it has been worth it, but it has taken a lot of heavy lifting to get to that point. And yeah. So that's our method that we thought about as we walked through this from the very beginning. We didn't share that with anyone. That... We feel like now that we're done with all of our public pastor conversations, that we can share that.

[00:39:36] Mike: We wanted everyone to be able to walk into those conversations with kind of a clean slate, and so I think hopefully we'll let our guests tell us if that didn't happen, but

[00:39:44] Monica Kumar: they'll tell you

[00:39:45] Mike: Yeah we'll let our guests tell us if for some reason we did not honor that in, in how we approach those conversations.

critique from the other direction.

[00:39:51] Mike: Okay. So when we started this episode, we started with kinda the critique that we had received right out of the gate, and I wanna say that we've re- we have received critique from, quote-unquote, both sides, whatever those sides are, right?

[00:40:04] Mike: Which is really hard to define, and I hate using that term. But we wanna play for you a, a couple of those audio message. We have asked for audio messages all season long. Some of those we've addressed. I told you at some point that it, we had others to address. And so I wanna play two of those for you, and then Monica and I wanna respond to those Because I think it is important to acknowledge that we are listening. We want to listen even if we fumble the responses. On the other hand, we have this other dynamic where it's a cheap move, in my opinion, to say we've gotten critique from the right, and we've gotten critique from the left. So we're in the middle, and, we're balanced." And just because we've received critique from both sides, it doesn't mean we're right.

[00:40:44] Monica Kumar: No

[00:40:44] Mike: And I wanna hold that out in front of everyone, that we have no corner on being right. And what matters more than, I think, me being right, and I think this is true of you, Monica, you're welcome to disagree with me, is that the people's voices be heard about their own experiences and what they hear and what they see.

[00:41:00] Mike: That is one of the most important things that we carried with us through this entire season. So let's play those, and we'll come back after those, and we will maybe respond to some of those.

response 1.

[00:41:11] response 1.: I love the series and what you're doing. I do find it interesting, though, that we're comparing what happens on Sunday to the decisions made on Monday. And all the churches and people that you've interviewed, yes, feel very welcoming on the surface, but when you dig deeper and start researching what these churches actually believe, while they say they're not into politics, they're definitely into, like, the social social wars. Is that what we call it? Transgender, gay marriage a lot of those churches do not accept those people as they are. I don't know, and I don't know if they accept them with conditions but all of them talk about God and Jesus's unconditional love. But you've never asked the question to them directly how those people are welcomed into their church or into their community.

[00:42:08] response 1.: So it feels like we're platforming these church pastors and giving them a place to sound like, like their flock is welcoming and loving. But what's happening in reality and what's happening in the way people vote and the leadership in our communities doesn't really reconcile with the kindness and love that all of these preachers are speaking about.

[00:42:34] response 1.: For example, just went on their website. Nope. Man and woman only, both in gender identity and in marriage. And so when we're thinking back to the mural conversation it just, it feels like there's a disconnect, and you are not bringing that to light. You're just platforming these churches in a way that makes them all seem great and loving and welcoming.

[00:42:59] response 1.: That's coming from a non-Christian, probably agnostic, believe in the universe, believe in karma, but don't really feel like we're getting real authentic conversations right now. It feels a little shielded, and I notice Mike all the time saying, "Oh, I felt very welcome there. I felt very included in the conversation." Well, yeah, you're a white dude. Of course you're gonna be straight white dude. Of course you're gonna be welcoming, and I also don't understand why you're so afraid. What are you afraid of? You tiptoe around these conversations like, dude, let's talk about Walmart. Let's talk about the atrocities that they're committing and how they're contributing to the greed and the billionaire class and the poverty of the middle class and the working people.

[00:43:57] response 1.: Let's talk about those things

response 2.

[00:43:58] response 2: Um, my concern in, uh, highlighting some of these, uh, church pastors, in particular the one from is that, um, it really gives the impression, it kind of positively portrays him and the ministry of that church in, um, you know, kind of an artistic way as being somehow above the fray of politics when, in fact, um, among others, are really at the forefront of a culture war against trans people.

[00:44:30] response 2: And that, uh, episode doesn't really highlight that at all. Um, and the format doesn't really ask anything of him that challenges him in any way. It kind of just becomes a, a platform for him to kind of present his perspective and without any kind of like direct, you know, interview, uh, back in the way that you might see in a 60 Minutes episode, et cetera.

[00:44:56] response 2: So when I see it shared on social media, I find it, um, a little bit troubling, especially given that it's, um, the platform from some people that I r- r- respect and think have, um, more sensitivity to, um, transphobia and trans hate in our community than should ke- leave them being kind of just quiet about that.

[00:45:20] response 2: So that's my perspective

response.

[00:45:22] Mike: Okay, Monica we had a chance to listen to two, I think, worthy and we needed to listen to those, that critique of what, like what are we doing and what are we platforming and what are we doing about maybe culture wars and how people think about different members of our community.

[00:45:39] Mike: And ... I wanna first of all acknowledge that those, that's a, that is a real legitimate critique and it's worthy of us talking through and responding. We may not get this response correct, but we at least wanna maybe like engage with it in a way that is a beginning point for the conversation.

[00:45:53] Mike: And we talked about this a little bit before, like we did know who we were walking into the room with, and our method, right? Our method was really important to not be in a place where we were not gonna be combative or argumentative or there to r- honestly judge another person's faith, right?

[00:46:09] Mike: Now, how that works itself out into the world, yeah. Now, this is probably at the point of the season where we now start to engage some of these conversations. And I think it's a fair question. You asked what we were afraid of. And I would say w- I don't think we're afraid at all.

[00:46:21] Mike: I think if I would ask for maybe a kind of a wider view the topics that we have talked about within the underview have ranged in all kinds of dynamics of very, very uncomfortable spaces. And, one of the comments that you heard was about our trans community, and we had a long conversation about our trans community, and their, the necessity of what it looks like for our trans community to feel like, and to actually and to have relationship in our community that they are not being dehumanized, that they are not being targeted. And so, if we were to go back, look over the long arc of this podcast we're gonna engage with people whose voices are not heard, and we wanna make sure that people's voices are heard. And that is for people who are marginalized to a very serious degree, like our queer community. it's also gonna be for those to listen to the voices for those that maybe sit on the other sides of those conversations.

[00:47:17] Mike: If we can't have a conversation and we can't engage in all spaces of our community, then we're not going to be what I would hope would be a bridge to start a dialogue. And when we started this podcast, three years ago, it was how do we take national dialogue around ideologies and how do we shift it to a regional conversation about values?

[00:47:39] Mike: So when we talk about both the combination of our method and our desire to try to keep the room open so that we can continue, to have conversations with faith communities to try to understand all the nuances and all the different levels of this this is why we don't engage in specific conversations to have those kinds of conversations.

[00:47:59] Mike: Should we? It's a valid critique. I'm not gonna dis- distance myself from that critique. There are podcasts, there are conversations, there are places where that happens. This spirit of this podcast was where I did not feel like that was appropriate in the space that we had.

[00:48:15] Mike: Because here's the other reality of the podcast. Monica and I always get the last word.

[00:48:19] Mike: We're the ones that be able to kinda try to pull all of these conversations together. And so I wanna be clear that we are here to try to understand how do we bridge gaps so that we can understand our own culture, so that people can hear our own culture, so that people can work to be agents of change in our culture, so that everyone in this community finds a place to belong. That is a non-negotiable.

[00:48:45] Mike: I don't care who you are, who you love, what you do where that shows up in our space. If you are being dehumanized or marginalized, I will stand with you. That's just the principle that we're gonna walk through. Because no one deserves to be on the underside of power in any way, shape, or form.

[00:49:01] Mike: So I agree with your critique, and I want you to hear from me directly that my decision not to engage in those spaces is not, I wouldn't consider it fear or hesitancy to not engage or not being able to engage in those issues. This is a conscious decision around the method that we're choosing to try to make sure that we keep this conversation open.

[00:49:22] Mike: So that's my soapbox. As you can probably clearly hear.

[00:49:26] Mike: I apologize for that. And Monica, do you wanna respond?

[00:49:28] Mike: You don't have to, but I'm curious if... none of that critique was really directed towards you, or at least I don't feel like it was, but do you wanna respond to any of that?

[00:49:35] Monica Kumar: Well, first of all, I mean, it's you know, I'm gonna, take a little bit issue there and say that this season at least, a- and certainly at this point now, feels like our season. So the, you know, we...

[00:49:46] Monica Kumar: and you have given me more than 50% of decision-making power in, in this season, and I am incredibly grateful for that, but also wanna take ownership of that. I think, you know, you've, you've outlaid a lot of the, the thinking behind our, process, and I really appreciate that, and I'm 100% in, in agreement.

[00:50:09] Monica Kumar: I, again, will reiterate, I don't think anybody who even can begin to know me would not know where I stand personally on, you know, every issue around equity, around LGBTQA+ issues, on gender identity, on, you know, race. I mean, name it. I think it's, it's pretty clear where I stand, and I'm not reticent about that.

[00:50:35] Monica Kumar: And having said all of that, for me, one, like you said, we made a very clear decision with this podcast that it was gonna be a narrative style podcast with very particular parameters.

[00:50:48] Monica Kumar: Two, I wanna say that from a practical perspective and also from an inquisitive perspective , and a critical perspective, I want to hear an, other people's perspectives and opinions and voices, and I didn't wanna shut that down before it started.

[00:51:07] Monica Kumar: Three, we did our homework just like anybody else can on the people that we invited onto the show or the faith traditions that, that they came from. You know, there's, there's plenty of information about what, what their tradition stands for, what they value, how they see community, who they see engage in their community.

[00:51:29] Monica Kumar: And again, I give our, our listeners I give them all the, the credit and the capacity to, to do their research and to know. I mean, they know. They're intelligent enough to. They're intelligent enough to hear what is being said. They're intelligent enough to find out what is not, and research what is not being said. And, and I believe that.

[00:51:49] Monica Kumar: And then the, other thing I'll say is that what we got a window into that was really important for me, we keep talking about, what do we hear on Sunday, and then how do we act in the world on Monday?

[00:52:02] Monica Kumar: Well, we were given a window into hearing what people hear on Sunday, and i- from rooms that I am not in, And so then when we're talking about the conversation about why are we where we are, why do people not understand each other, why can we not find common ground, this is how... Like, if you're hearing , our season allowed us to hear what hundreds of people are listening to on Sunday, or thousands of people, and then why they're acting and showing up in the world and in the community and in Northwest Arkansas and in the country in the ways that they are.

[00:52:40] Monica Kumar: And , There's so much learning in that, and I think if we had taken a heavier hand or a more critical hand with our questioning or our interviewing or taken a more combative, and I would say for me, I'll speak for myself, been more personal in the conversations with my personal opinions, we would never, I would not have that window, and we would not be able to share that window.

[00:53:06] Monica Kumar: So again, I take it back to our listeners and their intelligence, and I say, "Here's an opportunity to hear what hundreds and thousands of people are hearing week after week after week, and then maybe that gives us a window into what our community then looks like in action. And maybe there's a space there to be able to then carve out a place for some intervention or for some - communication or for some discussion you know, in that order."

[00:53:41] Monica Kumar: So yeah, I take the criticism. I don't in any way shy away from it. , And I don't argue with it. But I would also say that it wasn't unint-- like, it wasn't a blindsided approach, at least as far as I know from our conversations that we have had

those who did not want to talk with us.

[00:54:03] Mike: thanks, Monica. And I think, not to continue this conversation alongside of those critiques we had had some faith communities that didn't wanna talk to us, right? And you mentioned, and probably from me too if you've listened to this podcast long enough you probably have a pretty good idea of where my values would sit and the kinds, by, if nothing more, by the kinds of stories we're trying to tell, the kind of voices we're trying to lift up, the kind of world that we're dreaming of, right?

[00:54:29] Mike: And so that is, in the same way that we would do our homework on some of these faith communities are doing their homework on Monica and I, right? And we heard that initial critique from the very beginning, and there were some conversations that we would have loved to have had, but we did not. If I can, and this may sound more ego than anything, but like at this point in where we are in the underview like, if we want to talk to someone based on just , the quality of the conversations and the guests that we've had and the themes we've been talking about like most, almost everybody, 99% of the people that we ask and invite into this space to talk on this show, come and talk with us, right? Because they feel like it's a safe enough space that they can come into and talk about and have an authentic conversation. So we really hold that, in, in really high esteem, if you will.

[00:55:17] Mike: So when someone says no, it's not just like I, I don't interpret that as if they are busy or they didn't get the message or anything like that.

[00:55:26] Mike: And so there were churches and faith communities that we worked very hard to try to have as a part of this conversation, and and they said no.

[00:55:36] Mike: And so we had to kinda restructure some of this conversation around, okay if we have invited some faith communities into this space and they have said no, why? What's ha- why would they say no? Why would they not want their voices to be a part of it? So we listened harder, we listened more, we listened to more in depth about some of the things that were maybe being, talked about.

[00:55:56] Mike: So like we invited people to come into this and we found two things.

[00:56:01] Mike: People said no for really, I think if, I think it's fair to say one of two reasons.

[00:56:06] Mike: Monica, I know you led one of these kind of conversations to try to set up one of these interviews. May- maybe I'll let you share a little bit about why there was a no from this conversation or from that invitation.

no, because fear.

[00:56:19] Monica Kumar: Yeah. There was a particular faith tradition that I am incred- I was incredibly excited by and still am, I'm, I'm excited by because I, it's one that I'm personally exploring too in my own life and don't know enough about. And I joined them in worshiping. I had, I broke bread with them - two or three times, had incredible conversations, and they were very excited to participate.

[00:56:48] Monica Kumar: And then after conversations amongst themselves and with their families, they decided that they were too scared, that they had too much to lose and were concerned about their safety. And I would, Mike, you and I had agreed we would never, ever ask anybody to put their own safety or, you know, or trust in us at risk in any way.

[00:57:13] Monica Kumar: We would never do that, and we wouldn't push that. But yeah, that, it was heartbreaking actually, and it still is that that community, which is such a beautiful community and it, it sits in so much love and spiritual wisdom, and they just were scared to participate because they feel like they're kind of quiet, and they want to remain quiet

[00:57:37] Mike: Yeah. So what a loss for us all to not be able to hear their voices, 'cause it may be some of the most beautiful voices in our community. But at the same time w- we wanna just acknowledge and validate that consequences for talking about these kinds of things in public are real., Like we have to keep in mind that based on someone's background that there's a different calculation taking place about their ability.

[00:58:01] Mike: Know as a white cisgendered male, there's a lot of conversations I can have that no one is going to challenge me on or I'm not gonna pay any consequences for. That is not true of a lot of other communities in this community. And so I recognize that, and in many ways I think this conversation is how do we use that to push forward into these conversations, to have authentic conversations, to understand our community better. And so we wanna respect that. And so yes, when they asked that, A, maybe they needed to withdraw from the interview, we were like 100%.

[00:58:36] Mike: We acknowledge that, we bless that, and and your voice is missed, is what I would say in a way. And your voice matters to this community and the work that you're doing as a community matters so much. And we're so thankful for the work and the people, and the and the community that you are. And so that's a loss for us, but it's the reaction and the reality that we have real dynamics at play in our community that we'll talk about here in a moment.

no, because.

[00:59:02] Mike: So yeah, I think within the frame of, like, why we did what we did and wanting to keep that method open and wanting to have these conversations, there were churches that did not wanna talk to us, right? Just like we did a background check on a lot of these churches and faith communities, I'm assuming they probably did the same thing, for Monica and I.

[00:59:20] Mike: And it, I think it's pretty clear if you've listened to this series of conversations for a long time, by virtue of who we talk to and the stories that we share and the questions that we're asking it's probably not unclear about maybe how we think about what this community should be, right?

[00:59:35] Mike: But, the reality is this season there are there are some faith communities that were not here, that did not come, and that did not speak into this microphone.

[00:59:44] Mike: And Monica, it's really interesting you talk about how there's this, this real fear present the reality of the world that we live in, and I'm curious if maybe some of the other communities and traditions that we asked for those of you listening, if you were to probably think about your city and the largest faith community, the largest church in that area we probably asked them to come. And, ... I wonder if maybe their not accepting the invitation, maybe also flows from that fear, although different.

[01:00:14] Mike: Not a fear of like, persecution or being marginalized, but, a fear of what does this look like? I, no one in those larger faith communities owes anything to me. are not gonna lose anything or gain anything by having this conversation with me.

[01:00:27] Mike: They talk with probably, many more people on a weekly basis than, than I do or ever will. And so, like, I want to s- kinda create some space and just say that think that's also a loss from our community, and all we can do is interpret some of these faith communities through what they say in their sermons, which we've listened to, how we think they show up in our community.

[01:00:50] Mike: And I think their absence from this conversation is a real detriment to us understanding how to work towards a community where everyone feels like they belong, where everyone is welcome where everyone's voice matters. And so, I think those faith communities know who they are, and if they wanna sit down and have a conversation, we're more than willing to do that.

[01:01:08] Mike: But just like we're not gonna name the community that's not gonna be here out of fear for their safety, we're not gonna name the communities that are not here because they didn't accept those invitations. And that, that's a loss from our perspective. It may have added one more episode, if you will.

[01:01:24] Mike: So I don't know that we've totally, it's not like we're missing huge chunks of what our community would represent or say, but I think it is a valid critique.

who we would not interview.

[01:01:33] Mike: And, the other thing is that there was also a conscious decision that there were gonna be faith communities that we would not invite into this space.

[01:01:40] Mike: We talked about this a little bit earlier, those that are gonna be actively dehumanizing people or are weak at risk that are gonna be de- dehumanizing people through their rhetoric and the quite way that they answer their questions.

[01:01:50] Mike: And so we listened to a lot of sermons that were overtly dehumanizing people, and we said, "No, we are not gonna invite them to the table intentionally to to create any more harm or to extend any rhetoric that is going to dehumanize and not see that imago dei that we are searching and looking for."

[01:02:12] Mike: And we have listened to a lot of those sermons, and I think it may be a good idea just for everyone listening to maybe give you a sample some of the places that we avoided to go. And, in the, in the realm of some of the worst things we heard versus some of the best, this is not the worst. And you'll hear clearly that it's not the best either. And we're gonna put some of these voices here. We're not going to identify who they are, we want you to know that there are voices in this community that we have avoided intentionally, because the dehumanization of people is unacceptable So we'll play some of those quotes

[01:02:49] Monica Kumar: I think it's also important just to reiterate, Mike, why we're playing them here, and that is, I think ties a little bit back to, The fact that there are people listening to this week in, week out and learning from, from these conversations and l- me being in these congregations. And then when we wonder why perhaps our community or our country, you know, can't have respectful respectful discussion, can't listen to each other, can't see the humanity in each other, maybe, maybe there's an, maybe one answer in some of these voices

[01:03:27] Mike: Let those play

cn sermon 1.

[01:03:28] pastor1: The Continental Congress on May the 17th, 1776, met together and called for, before this, a day of prayer and fasting for this country, for a direction, for the leadership, for God to break in, and called all people to rededicate themselves to be God's people, and for this land to be God's land.

[01:03:52] pastor1: 250 years later, we are the recipients of what was passed on to us that formed this nation, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

[01:04:04] pastor1: You may have seen that President Trump and the Congress has declared that today is a day of rededication. And throughout the day, even as we're meeting, gatherings are going on in Washington, DC on the Mall, where leaders from across the country are coming together, Christian leaders. There's one, uh, Jewish person a part of that, but it's, it's unmistakably and, and unashamedly a Christian event because that's how the nation was formed, and that's caused some derision in our country because we seek to be inclusive and that there's a place that all people can come, and there's a place for all people when they come under the flag and under the, the knowledge that God is over this country.

[01:04:47] pastor1: That God has still used our country and is using our country to proclaim the Gospel of lifting up Christ in ways that no other nation has ever done in history,

[01:04:57] pastor1: This is your land. This is your nation And you know, a number of years ago, we were told by a leader that we are not a Christian nation, and I have to speak against that. That was a lie, that was a falsehood.

[01:05:10] pastor1: Because everything that we're founded on, without Christianity, we have no nation, we have no Constitution, we have no rule of law, because it's all based on the principles and the teachings of the scripture of Jesus Christ.

cn sermon 2.

[01:05:26] pastor2: and this individual I was arguing with about it, and I was arguing, by the way, he was just like, "You're Islamophobic. You, you just don't want a different type of religion in your country."

[01:05:34] pastor2: Number one, let me just throw this out there in case y'all didn't know this, Islamophobia is not even real. You can't have a phobia toward a political ideology. Is- I- Islam is not a religion, it's an ideology. Mm-hmm. Muslim is the religion. Islamic is... really, it's a... it, it's not just an ideology, it's a political, um, agenda.

[01:05:56] pastor2: And you're, you're... uh, there's no phobia against Islam. Now, you could say, "Hey, I, I'm anti-Muslim, and I..." But I'm not anti-Muslim. I love Muslims, but I am anti, uh, Sharia law. Mm-hmm. And I am... uh, when, when you look at the understanding of what Islam stands for... you, you take it, and I, I put it in my notes, basically, Christians go, go make disciples in, you know, Matthew 28:19.

[01:06:21] pastor2: You know, you look at, uh, Judaism, uh, understanding the Torah, and it's like, find out God's laws, his covenants, and abide by him, and, and, and learn from him and grow. Yeah. You take Islam, and it says this, "Go kill people." I mean, it literally- .. says, "Kill the infidel." That's quoted from their scripture.

[01:06:40] pastor2: Now, I'm just saying, does that sound American to you? We need to make sure we understand why we're a Christian nation. And it's understood based on the morality of God's word.

church 3

[01:06:50] pastor3: You're either a male or you're a female. You're not anything in between. There's no such thing as transgenders. There's no such thing as same-sex marriage. There is no such thing as, uh, i- in God's eyes, there's no such thing as any- anything between a male or a female. You know, there's a, there's a little tune, you probably never heard of it, but, uh, uh, it was, it was said, uh, "Come on down to the farm, come on down to the barn. You won't see two roosters walking arm in arm. They can't make a chick because they don't have an egg to hatch. When God said love your brother, I don't think He meant like that."

church 4

[01:07:46] pastor4: ask a Hindu. Ask a Hindu where, where, where creation come from, and they will tell you that their god woke up on the back of a giant scorpion out there in space somewhere, and he ate something that didn't agree with him, and he vomited up creation. That's it. We're, we're, we're, we're- We're vomit. You're vomit, yeah. From a baby in the back. Yeah. See, but then there's different versions o- of, of Hinduism. There are different versions of Buddhism. The last time I knew, there were 67 different types of Baptists S- people get u- people get angry, so they go out and they create their own, right?

[01:08:27] pastor4: So that's, that's w- how this, this mess has happened.

[01:08:30] pastor4: So, so in our culture today, the world says that we gotta have... If we gotta have Jesus, then let's mix him in there with Muhammad. Let's mix him in there with Buddha. Let's mi- m- mix him in there with many other secular forces, crystals, and all that stuff.

[01:08:52] pastor4: And then w- then you go into Catholicism a- and, and they throw Mary into to, uh, you know, the g- God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and Mother Mary. You know, and she was not deity. She was a tool, just like you and me in the hands of God. See, the fact is they say, let's intertwine all these beliefs together.

[01:09:13] pastor4: Let's, here it is, coexist. You've seen these bumper stickers, right? Coexist. All the, the emblems from different religions that spell out coexist, and of course Christianity is the T. And th- that's, that's saying that all of these, I mean, we can all, we can all have doctrinal unity. No, we can't. Muslims will say, "Your God is my god." No, he's not. Uh, the, the, uh, Mormons will say, "Well, God is, your God is my god, too. And like him, I will someday be." No, you won't. See, af- they, they say this: "After all, we are all going to heaven, right?" No, not at all. See, the Gre- the Greek word for that belief system is malarkey. In the Latin, it's pronounced hogwash. In the Spanish, it's called no way, Jose.

church 5

[01:10:18] pastor5: In our culture today, you have abortions, homosexuality, transgenderism, random horrific murders, literal political assassinations praised by the left, fatherlessness, pornography, rampant feminism and the destruction of the family, illegal immigration. Everywhere you look, wickedness, darkness

[01:10:39] pastor5: now you'll say, or you'll get people that say, "Well, don't make this political. This isn't a life, right or left issue."

[01:10:45] pastor5: Christ is king. It's Christ or chaos. There is no third way. They will either bend the knee to Christ, kiss the Son, lest ye be angry and you perish in the way. Good morals will not get you there. Christ is the only answer.

[01:10:57] pastor5: But make no mistake, as it is today, the left and the right is an issue between good and evil, light and darkness, truth and lies. Let me say it as plainly and as clearly as I can, and I'll back it up.

[01:11:13] pastor5: The ideology behind the left is absolutely satanic. It is demonic. It is evil. It is wicked. It is unrighteous. Literally principalities and powers. What we're seeing is the unseen spiritual warfare in the spiritual realm start to overflow and bleed into the physical realm.

[01:11:36] pastor5: It's all the same war, righteousness and darkness. Now, those are strong words, but listen to what God's Word says. Probably the only proof you need. Proverbs 8:36, God says, "All who hate me love death." Love death. This is not just proclaiming a truth that if we reject God, we will die, which is true But all who hate me love death. This is the fruit of rejecting God. The whole platform of the left is death. Death.

after unvited sermons.

[01:12:11] Mike: and that's why our content warning is on this episode, because we realize these are not voices we would want to lift up in our community, and we share them not to lift them up, but we share them to give a, everyone maybe a bit of a sobering reality w- we still have a lot of work to do in this region ar- around what it looks like to provide welcome and belonging and to see each other in this idea as fully human and full of dignity. And I think maybe that bridges us kind of this into the next conversation, which is the questions that we still have.

remaining questions.

[01:12:45] Mike: And o- one of these questions that we have consistently run up against and we have spent a lot of time working through trying to understand what does this mean to our region, is the subject of white Christian nationalism .

[01:13:01] Mike: We have seen this come up more churches than we would have ever thought possible. We have heard rhetoric that is, if I'm honest, is baffling to me. We have heard claims about what this country and this region and its government should look like, that I don't know how people come to these conclusions. And so I think this is one area, as we've done all of this discovery process, as we've tried to understand what our method is to as many spaces as we could possibly gain, we are left with this glaring thing that I don't know what to do with, if I'm honest. It doesn't sound like it's something that true to what the Christianity I'm familiar with and have grown up in should be or is. so this is one of the bigger questions that we are left with. How, what are we going to do? How are we going to reckon with this thing?

[01:13:51] Mike: And we've done some research to try to understand how pervasive these thoughts are. and I would say that when we talk about white Christian nationalism, we're, Monica, I think we're gonna need to go step into some other spaces to learn more. This is not my area of expertise. We're gonna have to step into some spaces and bring some people in to try to understand this a little bit more. And Normally, I know that, our community politically we have, people on both sides, maybe far extreme sides.

[01:14:20] Mike: But from our research it looks like this idea of white Christian nationalism now is part of, approximately 40% of the faith communities that we have surveyed and we have researched for this season.

[01:14:34] Mike: So it is something we have run into and we've continued to run into, and has been a, a huge representation of what the faith of Northwest Arkansas looks like. And so I think, I don't know, Monica, how you feel about this. I know this is probably dangerous waters to tread into, but this is kind of at the end of the season from our guests, what we're left having to reckon with

[01:14:57] Monica Kumar: I think, Mike, I do, I do wanna say that whether they came into our season or not we are basing our data on published sermons and published information, whether that's on YouTube or whether we found that, you know, as a sermon posted somewhere. Like, we're not, we're not guessing this

[01:15:18] Mike: It's unfortunately not a guess. And so, I think some of the things that we have been really wrestling with is how do we approach these conversations? how do we reckon with them? What do they mean? What does that mean to not just the faith of Northwest Arkansas, but what does it mean to civic life? What does it mean to our institutions? What does it mean to the laws we pass, and how city councils and school boards and, county governments and state legislators? Like, how does all of this now become a domino effect, or how does this really engage in our culture in the forming and shaping of our community and our space?

[01:15:54] Mike: This is going to be kinda where we head next in this episode. We've got some guests that are coming in that are gonna speak to this nationally to help inform and to teach us and to understand better what we're seeing in our own community. And then the question is what kind of weight do we give to this, and what does it mean, and what are the consequences? And how do we start to think about what that means as a part of the faith of Northwest Arkansas?

[01:16:17] Mike: This is probably the place I didn't wanna go, if I'm honest, Monica, but I don't know how to avoid it at this point

[01:16:24] Monica Kumar: Yeah, I mean, I, I think we would be remiss if we avoided this,- uh, nexus that we find ourselves at. And I will also say that, you know, this is not just a question for Northwest Arkansas. I mean, it, it is sitting in, , in DC, it is sitting in institutions of power. It is probably one of the defining questions of our time right now.

[01:16:46] Monica Kumar: And so I think that we have to have a conversation about the, the history of it, how it has developed, shown up, grown. I think it's strategic. I'm not a scholar here on this subject, but I know we're gonna bring in people who are. I'd be very surprised if it's by accident, and I would love to hear you know, how did we get here and, and always with the, with the intention, just like for me, every episode that we have had this season, with the intention of where do we go from here and how do we, how do we lift up from here?

[01:17:22] Mike: Yeah, I think this is, we hear about this nationally, but, like, when we have a conversation about, like, where does it really work itself out in our community, in our every day, in the actual places that we live and our kids go to school, and the policies that are made. I think one thing that we see is that this is a belief system that is not just going after and dehumanizing one specific group of people. It's actively dehumanizing everyone, frankly, that doesn't look like me, not a white Christian American, and what that belonging looks like as a part of the future of our country.

[01:17:57] Mike: But I think more importantly, the future of our region and our cities and our communities that we live in, this is not a national abstraction. This is an everyday present reality that is informing what our region is becoming. And so I I don't... Monica, I don't wanna go down this road. I really don't. And yet, at the same time, it feels like if we don't, we're gonna be in a position of missing the elephant in the room.

[01:18:23] Monica Kumar: If we don't, then we're ignoring our institutions. We're ignoring our schools, we're ignoring our libraries, we're ignoring what our children learn and don't learn in school, and the values that they grow up and, and build into our communities. So I think it's, it's imperative on us to, to ask ourselves, you know, where does this sit?

[01:18:46] Monica Kumar: How did we get here? And how is it, how is it mosaicing into, into everyday life in Northwest Arkansas?

[01:18:55] Mike: Yeah , Because I, it is affecting every day Arkansas. It is impacting people. And it is. Like, when we go back to the very first episode that we had, when we talk about as a system of meaning and power, this is where the meaning and the power start to I start to have some real questions about what does that power do, and how does it work itself out into the world?

[01:19:20] Mike: And I think I can honestly say it's not something we went looking for, but as we went through this season, it was something we could not avoid. And I think the first time we came across it, I was like, "Whoa. Where did this come from? Is that really happening?" then we dug deeper, and we went wider, and we listened more, in depth, what we found is that, and this is not an exception.

[01:19:42] Mike: This is something that is is a part of the culture shaping, faith making aspect of this region. And I think we have an opportunity to learn together what it looks like to make sure that we understand, and at the same time to understand or to practice what it looks like to live out our faith individually in our communities, in our homes, and how that moves into our theology, and how that moves into our institutions, and how that moves into our churches. And ultimately, what that looks like from an ideology perspective that is, in many ways and many facets of our community shaping the power structures of how so many of us live.

[01:20:21] Mike: And I think with that, Monica, unless you have anything else you wanna share that is our reckoning episode for where we are right now. We have a lot to reckon with, and this is not done. And so I hope you'll join us as we walk through the next set of episodes to dig into this even deeper, and to understand it, and to try to understand where does this and how does this inform the faith of Northwest Arkansas.

episode outro.

[01:20:45] mike rusch.: Well, that was a hard hour, maybe one of the hardest hours that we've had to deal with this season, and I know it was hard to hear. The five pulpits that you heard are all from this region, all posted online by churches themselves, and none of them is the worst of what we found. We played it so that you would know what's in the air, not to lift it up, but because we couldn't put them down.

[01:21:08] mike rusch.: We shared five sermons only. That's all just as a sample. But the hardest news that we have is that our research would tell us that there are probably over seven hundred or more of these kinds of sermons that are floating around in our region.

[01:21:21] mike rusch.: What does it expose? What does it tell you about the cultural current that runs below the surface? Early this season, we said the most dangerous liturgy is the one that you don't know that you're practicing, and here Monica called it the groundwater, the thing that flows around us and that we're swimming in and yet we may not be aware of.

[01:21:38] mike rusch.: And I grew up in it, but today I can see it clearly.

[01:21:42] mike rusch.: So here's the path ahead. We're gonna do some homework around this topic of faith in Northwest Arkansas, specifically the part where white Christian nationalism has taken root. We wanna understand it better so that we can all understand it together, to understand if it's truly in the groundwater below us.

[01:21:58] mike rusch.: If you are a pastor or you used to be, and any part of today was your story, we would like to know. No names, nothing used without your permission. Or if you're wrestling with what you heard today, know that we are also, and we would like to hear from you. Feel free to send us a voice message on the button on the underview.com homepage. And I just wanna say thank you. Thank you again for listening. This was a hard episode.

[01:22:19] mike rusch.: I wanna thank you for being the most important part of what our community is becoming. This is the underview, an exploration in the shaping of our place and our faith