the southern baptist church with Pastor Dustin Barton.

​​content warning.

[00:00:01] mike rusch.: Before we begin, this episode contains discussion of historical violence and harm, including the enslavement of people and references to sexual and physical abuse within faith communities.

The underview is committed to honest storytelling about our place, and sometimes that means sitting with hard things. I would ask you to please take care of yourself as you listen

episode preview .

[00:00:24] dustin barton.: We got too close to the fire and got too involved. We took too hard of a stance on a political issue, and it burned us. Because there are, and there are things that, that pastors must address from the pulpit, like with issues of Imago Dei, how people are treated, how we care for people. We have to talk about those things. You can't look at scripture and not talk about it.

You can't read James 1:27 and see true religion is to care for the widows and orphan, and not talk about the policies that support and do that. But it is never a church's, or I believe it should not be a church's job, or especially a pastor from the pulpit, to tell you how to vote, because that is such a personal and dynamic thing that the that scripture itself doesn't e- entirely tell you, "You need to vote this party. You need to vote that party."

episode intro.

[00:01:53] mike rusch.: We are listening to The Underview, an exploration in the shaping of our place. My name is Mike Rusch, and today we're sitting down with Pastor Dustin Barton, who is the lead pastor at First Baptist Church in Greenland.

I wanna tell you right up front why this episode matters to Monica and I. The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. It's the largest Protestant denomination in Arkansas, and here in Northwest Arkansas, every major city has a Southern Baptist megachurch. The biggest pulpits in the region, the most-watched live streams, the rooms where most of our elected officials sit on Sunday mornings are within the Southern Baptist tradition.

So if we truly wanna understand the faith of this place, we do have to understand the Southern Baptist Convention. But here's the thing. We didn't wanna start with the megachurch. We wanted to start with a Southern Baptist church whose life is lived in community, where the pastor knows the families, and the families know the pastor, and the choices the church makes has to be lived out every week with the same people in the same parking lot.

We're going to get to the larger churches. That's a conversation for later in this series. So before we get there, I wanted to ask a different question.

What does this tradition look like stripped down? What does it look like when it isn't pastoring power or chasing scale or speaking to the masses? What does it look like when it's just pastoring in a community and in a place to a people?

Greenland, Arkansas, is a town of about 1,400 people. It sits just south of Fayetteville. Highway 71 runs right through it. But then the interstate came, and the town quieted. This church, First Baptist Greenland, was planted there in the 1960s. Pastor Dustin grew up at this church. He came to faith there. He served on staff there, and then he left. And then years later, he came back as the lead pastor to do the patient work of repair after a very difficult season that this church had to go through. That season and this story is a part of this conversation.

This is the question of what happens when a pulpit gets too close to the fire of political power. But it's also a question of forgiveness and reconciliation, and the difference between them, and this is the question of what it costs a town when a church divides and what it takes to rebuild.

This is a conversation about a tradition with a long history in this country, a complicated one, And a place where that tradition is being lived out, not according to scale, but about how to be faithful in its work of repair. A few things that I'll ask you to hold onto while we listen.

Hold the scale. This is one Southern Baptist congregation in a town at the far edge of Northwest Arkansas, with a pastor doing the patient work. It's not the whole tradition. It's not meant to be. It is one voice from inside, and the rest of the tradition has its own voice, and will get its own turn.

Hold the cost. Pastor Dustin and his church paid a price for getting too close to political power. He's one of the few pastors in this region who has a story and can talk about what that costs. Listen for what he says about it. Listen for what he believes a pulpit is for and what it's not for.

Hold the hope, because the part of this conversation that surprised me the most is what sits on the other side of that division. There is something on the other side of it. He's been there. He's going to tell you about it.

And I'll make one comment that I hadn't planned on when we scheduled this conversation. On June 10th of this year, at the Southern Baptist annual meeting in Orlando, Florida, roughly six thousand Southern Baptist representatives voted three to one to advance a constitutional amendment that would ban any Southern Baptist affiliated church from having a woman serve in any pastoral role, not just the lead pastor, any pastor, any elder, any overseer. A second vote next year in Anaheim would make that final. That is the institutional voice of this denomination. That is what its scale sounds like when it speaks, six thousand people in a convention hall voting on what it counts as a Southern Baptist church.

This conversation with Pastor Dustin was recorded before that vote happened. I didn't ask him about it, and I'm not going to put words in his mouth about it. He's a Southern Baptist pastor leading a Southern Baptist church. The denomination that he serves voted on that question earlier this month. That's part of the room that we're sitting in, whether we want to be or not.

We will return to these larger institutional questions later in the season. But for now, I'd ask you to listen to this conversation within the context of this congregation's story. And if something stirs in you while you listen, a question, a memory, a wrestling of your own, send it to us. There's a Send a Voice Message button on the underview.com website. We listen to every single one.

All right. We've got a whole lot to work through today. Let's get into it

episode interview.

[00:06:26] mike rusch.: Monica and I have the privilege of sharing a table with Pastor Dustin Barton, who is the lead pastor at First Baptist Church in Greenland. Pastor Dustin, thank you for being a part of this conversation.

Welcome to it.

[00:06:37] dustin barton.: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

[00:06:38] mike rusch.: Welcome. It's a joy to have you with us, and this has been such a rich conversation with so many faith leaders in our region to try to really understand how you view the role of your church and your faith tradition, your own story, and what that looks like as it kinda works itself out into our community in a way that shapes it.

And so I'm really curious to to lean into your story and to understand it. Maybe let's begin with your background and your story. I'd love to hear who you are and your background, your faith journey, and maybe how you ended up in Greenland.

[00:07:10] dustin barton.: Yeah. So I actually was born and raised in Fayetteville and actually grew up going to Greenland schools, so that's where I started. I grew up there. My parents, my, my dad worked at the school.

Actually, he still works there. He's been there for over 36 years, and my mom works for MANA the Medical Artists Association of Arkansas. I can't remember what the acronym is. But anyway my family's very local to this area, so I grew up in Greenland. That was home for me. And growing up, church was really like a more cultural Christianity. It wasn't, there was no, not much discipleship. And I don't say that to kinda knock my parents or anything, but it's just a... when you think of like living in the Bible Belt and what church is, most people just attend. They don't really practice or live those things out, or it's very surface level, and that's kinda what it was for us even as a family.

And because of that, I eventually got involved at First Baptist Greenland as a kid, going to their children's ministry stuff. So I would stay after school with a buddy of mine, and we would go to his grandma's house, and she was a member there, and she'd feed us dinner and then send us over to the church, and that's kinda how I got involved.

But as I was learning about faith and what it meant to believe and trust in God, I kept hearing this idea of sin, and I always thought it was reserved for like, really bad people. Like, I thought, "Okay well, if you've gone to jail for murder or something like that, then that's who it's for.

It's not really for this eight, nine-year-old kid that, doesn't really do- horrible things, right? Like you would you read sometimes in the Bible people have done. And so I just never really believed that was something that I was needing, so I didn't feel like I needed as the SBC tradition would be that, we need Jesus as our savior.

That's what, a lot of Christianity is centered around that. Up until I endured a really serious hunting accident. So I was 11 years old, and I was deer hunting with my papaw, and it was two days after Christmas, and it was really icy. And he-- we were done for the morning. I was just ready to eat breakfast. I was hungry, and I wanted to go play video games. That's, any 11-year-old kid wants to do that. And so he takes both of our guns down loads them onto the four-wheeler, and I start coming down the deer stand, and I missed the first step, and I fell. And so I fell about 17 feet and I shattered my left femur.

And from there, Papaw had to put me on the four-wheeler and then on the back of a Jeep, going through the woods and then going to the hospital, and I found out that I had shattered my leg from my knee to my hip. And so it looked like a grenade had gone off in my leg. It was awful. I was in surgery for 16 hours. They had to put pins in my knee and in my hip and a big rod on the outside. And they had to install a hospital bed at my house, and I didn't really get to go to school full-time for the rest of that semester. It was just a lot. And I remember thinking during that time, because I'd gone to church for a couple years, thinking, "Okay if I'm such a good person, then, like, why did th- why did this awful, bad thing happen to me?" And I really wrestled with that, and I just got angry and bitter at God. I'm like, God, how could you let this happen to me? How could you say that you're loving, and you're good, and you're just, but here I am an innocent kid, and I'm in a wheelchair, and I can't play with my friends, and I can't walk?"

And so it was just really discouraging. And I would have people from the church, they would make these cards and say they were praying for me. I actually think my mom still has the poster that the children's ministry there made at the time, where they put their hands on it and put things they were praying for me for, and they were so supportive and kind.

But it was just met with a really bitter heart 'cause I was mad. But then my sister was born prematurely, and I remember sitting in a wheelchair, and I'm Outside of the area where they have the babies, where you can see them, and I see my sister has an oxygen tube. She was born very prematurely.

Her lungs hadn't fully developed. And I didn't know this at the time, but I did find this out a few years ago, that she was very close to death because the doctor who was intervening on her birth in an emergency C-section was actually in the parking lot getting ready to leave to go on vacation, and he got paged to come in to help.

And he-- That was, like, his specialty, and if he didn't get that call, there was a good chance my mom or my sister or both could have died. I didn't know that at the time, but I, all I knew as this little boy seeing his baby sister was how scared for her. I didn't know what was gonna happen to her. She was innocent.

And I just remember for the first time just breaking down and praying, God, I'm sorry I've been so angry. Can you please help my sister?" And sure enough, she recovered by God's grace. She's great. And it was during that, her recovering and her coming home, that I began to, question my own anger towards God.

And I started to think, "Okay maybe God isn't who I should be angry with." And I really wrestled with that for a while. But then it really came all to a head when I went to youth camp about a year and a half later. It was my first summer that I could walk and do stuff all on my own without crutches or wheelchair or anything.

And I went, and the pastor who was there preaching was talking about suffering, about how we live in a broken and fallen world because of sin, and that there are consequences that we endure of sin that we may not be direct participants in. He said, for example, you might have somebody who is on the other side of a car accident that had nothing to do with that person's irresponsibility behind the wheel, but they end up enduring the consequences of that, or abuse or corruption or all these other things.

And then he talked about how Jesus himself suffered, and that suffering is a shared experience, but also we have a shared reward for those that put their faith and trust in Him. And I'll never forget what he said. He said, " Is it possible that God is allowing you to walk through brokenness for you to see your need for Him?"

And I just bawled my eyes out because I realized that during that time that my body was broken... I could have been dead. I could have lost my leg. I could have had my neck broken. But that's not what happened. And I'm walking now. The recovery that I had from such an awful accident with all the things that could have gone wrong from being thrown on the back of a four-wheeler.

Granted, my papa did his best. So that, that's probably what I would have done too if it was my son, is just throw him on the back of a four-wheeler and get him to the hospitals. Quickly as possible. But there's so many things that could have gone wrong, but God's hand was intervening on that situation. There could have been so many things that went wrong with my sister, but God's hand was in that situation. And so I realized in that moment that God had pr- been protecting me, that God was helping me, that yes, he allowed me to go through this awful accident, but it was through that awful accident that I learned so much and grew so much and became just a completely different person.

And I put my faith and trust in Christ in that moment and realized that, I'm no better than the people that I think are awful and are, in, in jail or, murderers at that time. And I thought to myself, "I'm no different than them. I sin and I struggle and I have anger and bitterness in my heart and I need a savior just like they do." And since then, I've really tried to own my faith and walk on it on my own. Actually, my parents, my mom was really supportive, and I can share this now because my dad's actually in church now and all that, but my dad actually thought I was in a cult. So when I got really involved in church, like I was like, I wanted a Bible for my birthday. I wanted to attend. I wanted to get dropped off on Sundays. Like I was really active in wanting to know more about the Lord and understand what it means to have my hope and trust and faith and build that up in him. And I remember my dad was always just "Why do you like this so much? What like you're always choosing God or the church over other things."

And I just told him, I'm like, "Dad, it's the most important thing to me." And he thought it must be some kind of cult then or something, 'cause that's weird." And then years later, like the Lord began softening his heart, and then he came to faith and he actually serves at the church that I pastor now. And it's just cool to see how the Lord has transformed him and and transformed my mom too and just continued to grow her faith. And ever since then, I've just been trying to live faithfully now. I mean, That's-- I'm not perfect. I'm an incredibly imperfect person. But I'm grateful that even though I'm imperfect, that the Lord is perfect, and he helps to grow me and sanctify me and make me more like him, and that's my desire.

My hope is that other people would know that hope too,

faith tradition background.

[00:15:00] monica kumar.: Thank you so much, Pastor Dustin, for sharing that. I feel like you sharing when your faith became real and, really a part of your life and where you decided to actively take it on is really powerful. And thank you for sharing such personal stories about your sister and your sort of crisis of working through it. I really appreciated that. And then I would say that as someone who's not as familiar with with the Southern Baptist traditions and with your specific faith, can you just give us a little sense of if someone has never sat in one of your pews, can you give us a sense of your faith systems and your beliefs?

[00:15:38] dustin barton.: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah the Southern Baptist Convention, and we normally like we'll shorten that acronym to the SBC just 'cause it's a little easier, although it's really close to SEC, so it g- ... can get confusing. It's not terrible. That's not a terrible thing. No, it's not, especially in the South.

No so, uh, we hold to a few beliefs that are very similar to other Christian denominations. Mainly the SBC's made up of independent churches that emphasize personal faith in Christ, preaching that's expository, meaning that the preaching walks through the text of the Bible rather than just preaching topical things. Now, I know that there are some pastors that do that within the SBC, but generally speaking, preaching derives mainly from the word of God and teaching that directly and teaching other people how to understand and wrestle with that themselves.

Also the Southern Baptist tradition is full of baptisms, as, the name implies. We believe in the believer's baptism, so when someone puts their faith and trust in Christ for the salvation of their soul, basically we then believe the next step is for them to practice showing what has happened in their heart on the outside through baptism. We don't believe there's anything salvific about baptism. We don't believe there's anything if you were to not be baptized that you would then lose your salvation or something like that, but rather baptism is something that, that Jesus went through. Baptism is something that's really important, and it shows this - externally what we believe happens in our hearts, that we've been, that we've been raised literally from spiritual death by Christ, and we've been washed away from our sin or w- uh, or washed away, uh, our sins have been washed away.

We believe that by full submersion, so we f- we will sub- submerge somebody in a tank and then bring them all the way back up. I know there's some other traditions that do sprinkling and things like that. But we go all the way. So if you're- ... if you're somebody who's in a Southern Baptist church you'll see a commonality is you're gonna see a baptistry there. It's like a big tank of water that's always there- ... and that you can- see. It might, sometimes it's hidden behind a screen or something, but normally it's there.

That's a central part of the staging and what we do for worship.

[00:17:42] monica kumar.: I did not know that.

[00:17:43] dustin barton.: Oh, yeah?

[00:17:44] monica kumar.: No.

[00:17:44] dustin barton.: Okay. Cool. I'm glad I'm teaching you something today. Yeah. Yeah. I like to-

[00:17:47] monica kumar.: you're teaching lots of things today. Yeah. But I'm just okay. Yeah. Please continue.

[00:17:50] dustin barton.: Yeah, absolutely. Also there's a with Southern Baptist churches, there's a strong emphasis on missions and evangelism. Basically, missions and evangelism is the act of going out to sharing your faith with others and sharing the gospel, the story of Jesus, and just allowing others to respond to that story. And then the really the w- last thing that's really important, w- and really I think specific to the Southern Baptist Convention, is a really strong sense of community.

So a lot of churches in the Southern Baptist Convention really try to emphasize building community within the body of the church through Sunday school or small groups or community-driven events to build relationships, 'cause we believe authentic relationships helps to not only strengthen people in their faith, but also helps to strengthen our duties and responsibilities in caring for the community as Christ cared for his.

And so doctrinally there's a document called The Baptist Faith and Message that every church that's within this convention has to agree to, basically just certain beliefs about how we believe the Bible is true and it's infallible, that Jesus is the only way that we can ever be saved that we agree on baptism.

And I'm trying to remember if there's anything else that's really key and central, and there might be Southern Baptist people that are like, " What? How could you not mention this?" But anyways, those are the big things. And what's really unique about the SBC, though, is that you can go into one church that claims to be a Southern Baptist Church and then walk into another, and they're gonna look completely different.

Completely different. But their music may be different. Their, you may sit in a chair instead of a pew. But the, at the core foundation of what they are is that they seek to exalt God, to teach Christ and honor him in all that they do, and to help people feel like they belong. And so that's really the core essence of any Southern Baptist Church and to hold to what we believe is true about scripture and what we agree to as the primary doctrines, which is that God created us, that Christ died for us and that we are here to worship and serve him. And so that's basically it.

largest denomination vs. greenland.

[00:19:49] mike rusch.: I'm curious a- as a member of the Southern Baptist Convention, this, one of the largest denominations in the United States. I'm curious how you view this very large structure spanning, across the entire country and beyond, with the realities of being the pastor of one church in Greenland and how that relationship plays itself out practically.

[00:20:10] dustin barton.: Yeah. I find that it can be daunting to think about, like, how big the denomination is and the, the things that are in place. But also, it's so helpful for me as a pastor in a small town to understand there are a lot of other pastors like me in other small towns like Greenland.

And because of the way the Southern Baptist Convention is organized, the amount of resources that we share between churches is immeasurable. But really, I think what becomes really challenging is where the focus of the convention is at the time, and what resources are allowed to me in those moments.

So for example the Southern Baptist Convention- All these churches gather together to send their resources in. Not like all of them, but just like a percentage of their finances or people or whatever to go and carry out missions. So a church like Greenland that, doesn't have a lot of wealthy people, that church is relatively small, we're able to invest in missions that are going overseas, right?

We can in- invest in and support missionaries and pray for them even though we've never met them because we give to an organization called the International Mission Board, or we give to a fund for the North American Mission Board through a couple of individuals that we named these givings after.

Lottie Moon was a missionary in China in the late 1800s, and she basically helped to inspire the international mission movement. And so we give money in her name towards this effort so that our church, although we're not directly sending missionaries, we get to play a role in that in the bigger picture of the SBC.

What's also beautiful about it, too, is that we all get a voice. So even though I'm a pastor in a small town in my context where a lot of other people maybe don't understand that context, I can still voice things, within the convention and it actually be heard and seen, and I get a vote. And that to me is really important because a lot of these little voices matter in making decisions for the convention as a whole.

And there's not like a ton of, we don't have people that that are higher up in the SBC coming to our church often, if not at all. But we have people within our state convention that are very invested in what happens at Greenland. So maybe they're not directly involved with what we do, but maybe they're helping to find an interim if we need it, or they're helping to find pulpit supply, or, we're able to borrow a block party trailer from our local association that we all as churches help pay for so we can all share that resource in helping to care for our communities.

And does that answer your question? Yeah. I'm hopeful that's-

[00:22:31] mike rusch.: How do you view your role maybe within the larger Southern Baptist Convention?

[00:22:37] dustin barton.: So I used to view my role as really small and meaningless, to be honest with you. Like, when I was really starting off i- in ministry because I had always growing up, I'd always thought, oh the bigger the church, the more important your impact is.

But- As I've grown in my faith and have grown in the church, I've realized that mindset is not correct. Because it's not about how many, it's about what the Lord has led you to impact in that moment and in your context. And I've seen my role, honestly, as really important because there's not a lot of people that are lining up to pastor in Greenland, Arkansas, and the influence that I have, that the Lord has allowed me to have, is very specific to the calling He's given me for that area.

Just like it would be for someone called to serving in the Delta of Arkansas and serving in harder to reach places, right? I think God has uniquely equipped us to do certain tasks within the church, and I think that means that anybody's role is important, even if their role is seemingly small.

[00:23:33] mike rusch.: I love the way you laid that out because I grew up in evangelical Christianity, and so that idea of size of church and maybe meaning while maybe not ever spoken out loud, seems to been maybe an undercurrent sometimes.

Yeah. And so I love, yeah, I love the reinforcement of that posture that everybody's role does matter greatly.

history of the SBC.

[00:23:54] mike rusch.: I do wanna ask this question maybe just as we reckon with our history, we spent a lot of time in season two on just the history of Northwest Arkansas and we have a very complicated and layered history here connected to the, to the South.

And we're trying to understand, like, how does this impact, our culture today? Does it impact our culture today?

I think when we think about the founding of many denominations, the SBC is not unique to that, but one of the complicating factors, one of the hard histories of the SBC, it was, as, is that it was formed out of its response to the question of enslavement.

[00:24:27] dustin barton.: Yeah.

[00:24:28] mike rusch.: And as a Southern denomination has been part of Southern culture faith communities, since that time in that form.

I'm curious, w- within this connection back to the larger Southern Baptist Convention, how do you reckon with that history? What impact does that have on you today and how you think about leading a church?

[00:24:47] dustin barton.: So it, it's helpful for me to think about- where we started and where we are now, and the path that we took to get there to correct the things that we did wrong, and to seek to grow in humility and change. And I think about, 'cause honestly, I didn't even really fully understand the history of the Southern Baptist Convention, where they started, until just a few years ago.

I didn't realize that it started from this enslavement, and actually part of it came from my seminary. That was the first seminary- ... and that was o- of that played a role in that, and I... literally moving the seminary because they didn't wanna be in, in a certain part of the country. And then- and so i- it was just thinking to myself like, "Man," "what a dark place to start."

But I'm grateful for the Lord's redemptive work in His people, because I believe that over the course of time, the Southern Baptist Convention has gone through a lot of changes. They've come out with various different Baptist faith and mesha- message versions to keep everybody on the same page of where we are doctrinally and where we should be as a church, and practicing those things well, and holding each other to be accountable to that, and to be as faithful as possible.

And I think for me, that helps me to understand that I need to be okay with looking at my mistakes, and not hiding them or putting them under ru- under the rug, but learning from them and seeking to grow in them. Recognizing hey, there... I've got things in my past that I'm not proud of, but the Lord is also one who restores us and transforms us, and He's done so with the SBC Convention, too.

And that's something I really try to practice and teach to the local congregation I lead, is that, all of our history is blotted with sin and darkness, and things that we're not proud of, things that we are imperfect in, and things that we're still gonna be imperfect in. But we need to be honest and open and humble to change, and seeking to be restored and to repent of those things, and to do well moving forward.

' Cause I think if you just ignore your history, you're bound to repeat those same things over and over again.

[00:26:37] mike rusch.: Thank you for the... I- I think that, that reflection, 'cause I do. I... And I'm biased, but I do think that reflection, the ability to reckon with that history of all of us, and not just within the SBC, but wi- across many church denominations- Yeah

and even a culture here in Northwest Arkansas, that we do have that history. We do share that history. Uh, Not unique to Northwest Arkansas. That's part of the Southern story. It's part of the story of our country. The ability to be able to reckon with that and to move forward from it, I think is a really important thing. And I think- if I'm honest, I think our country, our culture, has struggled to understand sometimes what to do with that. Yeah. And I think as you look towards faith communities which has built into it this idea of repair and reconciliation that w- it could be the... And I will hold this hope in my heart forever, is that the church can be a, an agent of that repair in our world today.

Yeah.

reckoning and repair.

[00:27:32] mike rusch.: And so I do really appreciate your thoughts on reckoning with that.

I'm, Yeah, I think I'm curious this history, is that still part of that reckoning within the Church today that you see? Or do you feel like "Hey we have reckoned with this, and and we are continuing to find those places in the world where we can be a voice of that reckoning and repair"?

[00:27:54] dustin barton.: Yeah. I would say to Greenland, no. I think Greenland has r- reckoned with that and moved beyond that. But I will tell you I served for about four years in southeast Arkansas for a season. And I saw some churches that are still r- working to reconcile through that just with a darker history of racism and segregation. And I grew up in northwest Arkansas. Northwest Arkansas is a naturally more diverse place in the state than maybe other places in Arkansas. Not to say that we're not without those biases or- ... or racism, but that, when I moved s- down south, I saw it a lot more predominantly, even just in, like, where buildings were built and- that history's still there. And it just, there was conversations that I had in southeast Arkansas that I never thought I would have in my life growing up up here. But I definitely think that there are still areas where churches, maybe even up here, still struggle with past sin. And I'm not saying just with the sin of racism but with other sins as well, that they've gotta reconcile and move past.

And I think Greenland, one thing they've done really well is they've really tried to be honest about- what they've struggled with in the past and seek to move on through that. And I think our community as a whole has done that because it's really hard to hide from that when you're a town of 1,200 people.

You can't really put things under the rug when there's only that many people, 'cause everybody knows your business, and that is both a blessing and a curse in some ways. And I think it's helped peop- keep people accountable in our area.

For example the, s- Southern Baptist Convention right now has been struggling with with this history of hiding sexual abuse with many of their leaders. And I know that within the area of Arkansas that we live in, that a lot of churches have done really well to try to ensure that doesn't happen within their walls. And, like, when I heard about that with the SBC as a whole, I was shocked because I'm like, at Greenland that would, we, that would immediately be called out.

But then I'm like, I shouldn't be so ignorant to think that we don't do things like that or try to hide things under the rug. And so we can't allow ourselves to go there, because if we go there with one thing, we're gonna go there with other things, too. And sin festers best in the dark, and we wanna make sure that we bring it out into the light.

[00:29:55] mike rusch.: That's encouraging to hear just that, yeah, that ability to walk down those roads. I know sometimes that's not fun, and I think there are pastors... I wouldn't wanna talk about it if I was a pastor, honestly.

[00:30:05] dustin barton.: Yeah.

[00:30:05] mike rusch.: But I think the ability to do that is a model that, that we absolutely need, and

[00:30:08] dustin barton.: yeah.

[00:30:09] mike rusch.: Yeah. Yeah.

inherited traditions.

[00:30:10] monica kumar.: Yeah, no, I really appreciated that. And I think, Dustin, as I'm hearing you speak maybe you talked a little bit about this or alluded to it, but I'd love to hear you actually directly address it, is what are some of the traditions that that you're inheriting, that you treasure and you hold onto? And then perhaps what are some that you're thinking about, you're still working through or even reconciling with?

[00:30:32] dustin barton.: Yeah. I would say one of the traditions that I absolutely love and love to carry is the sense of collaboration and community. I love that, i'll just give, share this story.

So- Yeah, please ... a few years ago, I was, just started at First Baptist Greenland as the lead pastor. I'd served there as student pastor years and years ago, but I was stepping into this new role and the church was really struggling. And I just needed wisdom and some help. And I got connected to two guys that connected me to some other churches that actually gave our church a $10,000 gift to help us in starting some of the things we wanted to do to really bring to life our facilities to start, so that we could use it for the sake of the community.

And I love that. They weren't expecting anything out of it, but they just were neighbors wanting to help their neighbors. And they had, no investment in Greenland. They had no, like- like they weren't getting a return on their investment. They were just doing it because they, they loved the Lord and they loved the church, and they wanted us to thrive. And so I love that community aspect of it. And I also... This is gonna sound contrary to what I'm about to say. I also love the hard questions that we ask and try to seek out solutions to those things, even if it's very uncomfortable to walk through or changes the landscape of what we do and it's what we say.

But on the other hand, the other thing I don't wanna bring with me or that I don't like is that a lot of churches in our tradition are very apprehensive to any sort of changes. And so the- it's a two-edged sword. There's on one end- ... I love the fact that we have honest conversations about doctrinally where do we stand on this issue, and how important is it is to us? Sh- do- should we de- de-fellowship from a church because of this, or is this something that we can still continue to work together in the mission of what we feel like we're called to do? But then on the other hand you have a lot of churches that are so deep-setted in their traditions and roots that they would choose tradition over the truth of scripture, and that is, is to me something that I feel like absolutely needs to be rejected.

Our traditions are important, absolutely, but they can't supersede what God calls us to do, and we have to be honest about when our traditions fail that.

[00:32:38] monica kumar.: That is so incredibly powerful to hear. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I think that, for me, that really brings an honesty and authenticity to w- to, to what I'm hearing about you and who you are and and the way you practice and lead people.

Yeah.

[00:32:55] dustin barton.: I appreciate that. That's kind. Thank you.

[00:32:57] monica kumar.: Yeah.

greenland community.

[00:32:57] mike rusch.: You've mentioned this a little bit, but tell me about the church in Greenland. Every time you say Greenland, your church in Greenland, you smile. I don't know if others will be able to see that. So that affection kinda I hope comes through the microphone.

Yes. Yeah. But tell me about your faith community in Greenland.

[00:33:11] dustin barton.: Oh, man. Means a lot to me. I grew... I grew up at that church. It's the church I made a lot of friends at. It's the church that, that I was baptized in. It's the church that I had men and women discipling me and caring for me, and it was the church that I got to baptize my sister in.

It was the church that that my gran- my granny got baptized in and it's a really important church to me 'cause it was the kinda community I needed in growing in my faith in that area when I didn't have it in other places. And then eventually, that community seeped into my own family, and that is, to me, something I will so treasure.

Greenland as a community is very small and tight-knit. And it's funny because when I went to the University of Arkansas, I would tell people I was from Greenland, and everyone thought I was from the country Greenland. Oh. They did not... They didn't realize there was a town like five minutes south of Fayetteville called Greenland, Arkansas. They saw West Fork, but you can miss Greenland if you just blink. But we're getting a Wendy's now, so we're moving up in the world. But,

You're on the map.

Absolutely. We are now. And I've compared Greenland I don't know if y'all have seen the movie Cars, but it's very similar to Radiator Springs, how Highway 71 used to be, like, the really busy road, and there was a lot of businesses there. Drake Field Airport was used for a lot more things. I remember driving through there- Yeah ... going to Fort Smith.

[00:34:24] mike rusch.: Yeah.

[00:34:24] dustin barton.: Absolutely like, you had to go through it, but then the interstate was built, and then, people stopped going to the town. But Greenland has always been very community-centric, very very hospitable. And the church has shared that as well. And so the church was planted there back in the '60s by First Baptist Church Fayetteville. They bought an old house on this lot, and they've just added onto it and built it ever since. And it's just been a very central place in the community. There's a lot of people maybe that don't either... that either go to other churches that remember growing up in that church as a kid. Because it's so close to the school, you could just walk across the train tracks, and then you were there, and you get to, to hang out and be fed and, both spiritually and physically with free food. And, but, you know-

Let's be honest.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I went for the cookies and the games, and so that's... I'll be I'll be completely honest. That's entirely why I went. And then I- ... I learned the Bible and began to love the Lord. But I... Actually, there's a room that we used to meet at that I'll still walk by in the church and just mentally smell cookies- 'cause that's where we would always eat cookies. And now Greenland as a town is really special. But it's also in an area where it's about to grow exceedingly because really Northwest Arkansas doesn't really have other directions to grow in. And so Greenland is about to be the next one I feel, I believe, that's gonna really grow very fast.

And so the church in and of itself has had this history of ups and downs just with their, with just like with any other church. There's seasons where things are really well, financially and things are really well. Not that the church is, rolling in money or anything, but able to pay their bills and have people there full time. And then there are seasons where a lot of people are leaving, and finances are scarce and things are hard. But i- it's always been a church that's tried to be central to, to the community, to care for it well as best as it can with the resources it has, whether those resources are abundant or very few.

It's always tried to put the community first, and I believe that we still try to do that now, and my hope is long after me they'll continue to do that, too.

[00:36:21] mike rusch.: Listening to you it sounds like these two stories are inseparable, meaning your own personal story from the story of this church. Can you tell your own story without telling the story of this church?

[00:36:31] dustin barton.: No. I... it's pretty integral, especially when considering how I've grown in ministry itself, and even just what it really jump-started for my wife and I in the beginning of our marriage. And so no, I c- I can't share my story without really sharing more about Greenland,

seasons of the church.

[00:36:47] mike rusch.: and as you've shared a little bit those seasons of this church where things have been maybe great and prosperous and going in the right direction, but there's also been seasons that... and I assume these are seasons of your own life as well, too, that maybe things weren't going in the direction that you want, and maybe I don't know, I'm cur- I'm drawn to that part of- ... what have you learned? What are those seasons that you've gone through as a church where maybe you've had to really reckon and struggle with with who you are as a community, maybe how that plays itself out in your life as well, too?

[00:37:17] dustin barton.: Yeah. Yeah. There's one incident in particular that I think is really important to talk about, and before, before I, I share I really, I wanna emphasize just a couple things just because I know that- There may be listeners listening that were impacted by this or maybe share similar experiences or stories and I wanna make very clear there are imperfections on all sides.

Like everybo- like the Bible teaches us that we are all sinners and that we've all fallen short of the glory of God. And so I wanna emphasize that because when I talk about the situation, people did some things that were wrong, things that I disagreed with, but at the end of the day, they're still people.

And I'm still a person, too and I make mistakes, too. But I guess I'll start here. So I was on staff of the church as the youth pastor. It was my very first youth ministry position back in 2015, and I was excited. I was just ready to go, and man, the Lord was really generous with us and blessing us with being able to do ministry well with the school. We had really good relationships with them. We had a lot of students and kids attending on Wednesday nights whose, maybe their parents weren't believers or they didn't have the greatest home lives, but they had a place they could call home at our church. And so they were welcome. They were there, and it was just a great great experience.

And that's what I loved about being at Greenland so much is that I was a kid that that really grew and benefited from that community, so to be able to lead and be a part of that was just such a blessing. And the church was the biggest it had ever been at that time. We, We had about 120, 130 people on average, and for a church that size in that community was massive.

We were busting at the seams, didn't have any seats in our pews, 'cause we did have pews at the time. And we were talking about even building a new sanctuary and using our old one for the students 'cause we'd outgrown our student space. We had almost as many kids on a Wednesday night being discipled that we had people attending on Sunday mornings.

It was a really impactful ministry. But then my pastor, who I loved and who was a mentor to me for many years, he left. And he left to go pastor a church that was in a much more difficult area, a church that was not i- in a season of prosperity. And he felt like it was his calling to care for that church and to really serve as a missionary there. And so on paper, his decision made no sense, but when God calls you to do something, sometimes it doesn't make sense. You just gotta do it. And so he left, and so the church went through a season of, Okay we are in a season where we are the biggest we've ever been. Financially, we are doing the best that we've ever been. Let's see who we need to hire next. So the church went through the process of hiring a pastor, and they actually hired somebody outside of the Southern Baptist tradition. So they hired somebody from a different denomination. It was met with a little bit of hesitation from the church body, but they believed, "Hey, this guy has been at some really big churches, and so I think he'll do really well here."

And so this is where the problem started, because when you're talking about two different denominations and traditions, you're also talking about two different structures of a church. Whereas the structure of our church was very everyone has a voice. You have groups of people that are elected into certain positions to make decisions on behalf of the church. The pastor is there to shepherd and lead, but they do so under the guise of what does the church as a whole want and desire. And my pastor that mentored me was a very humble man. He listened to everybody's voice and he ensured that whatever we did as a church, we were unified in, and that every people that needed to be involved in those decisions were involved.

Whereas this pastor they just hired was from a completely different context, where the pastor was almost like a CEO. He made the decisions. He didn't have to run anything by anybody. It was basically like God had called him that position, so that means God had given him the authority over everyone to do whatever he feels led to do.

And this is be- the beginning of where the problems and where this really, probably the worst season for First Baptist Greenland started. And this was while I was there because something happened in our community that I believe any pastor in that position would have had a really challenging time working through. But because there was such a conflict of how he handled issues versus how the church handled issues in the past, it just was a perfect storm of... I don't know how to call this. It was just a perfect storm, and it just ended really badly.

So, uh, We had a couple of women in our church who were a part of the City Planning Commission, and part of their job is to try to help Greenland grow. And at this point, we're all jealous of West Fork and Prairie Grove and Farmington especially 'cause they're growing, they're getting all these businesses, but we're so close to Fayetteville. If you need anything, you just go to Fayetteville for it. And so we were losing a lot of people, businesses, homes to Fayetteville and not that, not that we have anything disparaging to say about Fayetteville, but we're a small town. We're right there. We wanna grow, too. And these two ladies decided that one of the ways that we could grow, the feedback they were getting from some businesses was that Greenland was a dry town, and that made it really hard to open up certain businesses in there, including... so apparently I actually ended up talking to one of the ladies about this.

Starbucks, for example, traditionally does not open business in a town that is a dry town. Starbucks does not sell alcohol, but traditionally, towns with, that have that don't bring in certain businesses, and therefore they don't grow as much. And their mentality was, we've not voted on this issue as a town in a while. We think it's time for this to be on the ballot to let people decide, do they want this or not? Because if they want growth, this is the next step forward. And if they don't, and they wanna grow a different way, that's fine, but they need to be able to v- vote and voice that.

The, they were doing their job as a part of the City Planning Commission to get petitions to put this on the local ballot for that election year. And this is the same year this pastor came here is when all of this started. These two ladies never really brought the church into it, but they would talk to people at church about it. And so talk to them privately to ask, "Hey, would you be interested in signing? If not, that's okay." And it was a very cordial... they weren't campaigning during worship or anything like that. It was, like, conversations you would have after service or at their home or in the community. It got to the point where they, there's a, there was a city discussion page, which this was back before, Facebook had a lot of admins that could moderate things.

And they ha- they posted on there, and a couple of other members of our church saw it and commented back, and they basically got into this- ... very public argument on Facebook. And I know maybe some people are like, "Oh, a public argument on Facebook. We see that all the time. That's not a big deal." But this got really ugly.

[00:43:47] mike rusch.: I mean- But this is your community. Like- Yeah ... these are neighbors. These are neighbors. They know each other.

[00:43:51] dustin barton.: And everybody knows who these people are. Everyone has seen them, and everyone has seen this happen, where you have these women that are trying to just get this on the ballot, and then you have a couple other members of our church saying how could you call yourself a Christian and be okay with something like this? This is wrong."

[00:44:05] mike rusch.: And can I ask just for clarity? Yeah. They weren't advocating that the city should do this or not. They were advocating that the city should at least have the ability to make a decision.

[00:44:13] dustin barton.: Yes. Yeah. That, that, that's all it was. And Which, if you were to talk to them individually, they both individually believed that was best for the town, but they weren't telling people to vote that way. They just wanted it on the ballot for the opportunity to vote. And so-

[00:44:24] monica kumar.: They wanted to open up the discussion. Yeah.

[00:44:26] dustin barton.: Yes, they wanted to open it up. It wasn't like a we're gonna, we're gonna, we're campaigning for a yes. It was like, "We want this on the ballot so people can decide what they wanna do." And so then some other people got involved from the church and from the community, and there was names that were thrown around and being called, and it just, it was really ugly and heartbreaking.

Eventually, the post got taken down, but not before the damage was done because you had the people in our community look on this public page and see people that are supposedly within the same body, that believe in the same God, that practice the same faith, that are calling each other names and making accusations of each other that were just really harsh and brash and just not discussed in a Christ-like way.

' Cause it was... it'd be different if you- Called somebody. ' Cause, there's a reason why Jesus tells us when handling conflict that you go to that person individually first, and then take somebody with you, and then bring it before the church. Because a lot of those things can be mitigated by a private conversation, but that's not what happened.

This was skipped and went straight to social media where everybody can see. And it's hard to have genuine discussion when you're not face to face with somebody. And it was brought before the pastor that this conflict had happened, and immediately this conflict became very public. And the pastor took a very hard stance on this issue to say that these ladies should not be participating in this and that it is unbiblical and unethical for them to do and I'll never forget the Sunday that this really stuck out, was he preached from the pulpit that Jesus didn't turn water into wine, he turned it into grape juice, and that if you are a Christian, you should have nothing to do with alcohol. And I'm like and again, and if you're listening to this and you feel led by the Spirit that, that you should not be around alcohol, it is a point of challenge for you. Listen, I'm not saying that... That that's okay. I, I respect and honor that. But to call these women out by their name in the service to say what they were doing was wrong from the pulpit, to share what I believe is untrue about scripture, 'cause I do believe Jesus turned water to wine. I believe that's why it was such a miracle.

Because anybody could put a colored powder in there and make it taste different, but to have fermented wine instantly is, it... That is a beautiful miracle and should not be, it shouldn't be mitigated. And so I strongly disagree with that, but I also was more, I was also upset that the pulpit was used to call out the sin of two individuals publicly in front of everybody. That's not what the pulpit's for.

And we had a couple business meetings that went really bad because these two ladies, their names were just thrown through the mud. They were, basically questioned, their faith was questioned, and then many of us within the church were like, "No, we believe the, these women are faithful. We believe that this situation is being handled wrong." And so the church split.

You had people, you had even people that were teetotalers, that didn't drink, that felt like- This issue was being handled wrong because it wasn't even about the alcohol, it was about how the issue was handled. ' Cause I'll just tell you y'all both I have alcohol flush reaction I've always joked with people that I was born to be a Baptist preacher because I can't drink alcohol 'cause it, it makes me have a migraine, and I get hives and all that.

But I'm not gonna say someone is living in sin if they're drinking a glass of wine. That's not... The Bible, I believe, speaks very clearly about drunkenness, but... And also, if you felt- feel led by the Spirit that you shouldn't drink, then you shouldn't drink. You should follow that. But that's a conviction of the Spirit. That's not a- ... hard stance. That's not a salvific issue when you take it before the church and say that and call these ladies out and it just was not handled well. Even for the people that agreed with him, they felt like the church, and even some of the deacons, the leadership of the church did not handle this well and with humility, and it just, it completely broke the church.

You had a lot of people leave. I lost a lot of students because their parents felt like their kids were not welcome at the church 'cause they drank, and they felt if the church is gonna take just such a hard stance on this issue, then what other things are we gonna take such a hard stance on that are not primary issues of doctrine and faith?

And I lost some students to that, and I felt handcuffed because I was such a newer staff member that I didn't really have a voice in the room to talk about these things, but I was also directly impacted by these things because I ran our soundboard. I-- me and a close friend of mine were both in agreement on this issue, and he led worship, and I did youth, and he and I were both like, "I don't know if we can be a part of this."

And we really wrestled with that. And there was even a point where the church felt led to put out these signs on how that you should vote for this issue and put them all over the yard. And I actually lived in the church parsonage at the time, my wife and I did. We had just gotten married a few months before this happened.

So what a way to start your marriage off, right? To walk through this issue together. And and I'll never... I I... And I've only told a few people about this, but it's public now. It's fine. People can know 'cause I, I think it's funny. But they kept putting the signs in my yard, and I kept taking them out and-

losing them. And I think it happened three times, and eventually they gave up putting the sign in my yard. 'Cause I was like, "I'm not gonna be part of this." I know this is church property, but this isn't right. We we shouldn't take such a hard stance on this. And I even asked my old pastor "Hey, what are your thoughts on this?

I wanna understand. Am I feeling wrong about this?" And he told me that, that's a really hard issue. Not issue of of what to teach or what to say on it, but hard because it was such a public discussion, how do you then reconcile the people that hurt each other privately?

He said, "But there is a way to do that and putting it before the entire church and bypassing all these different committees was not the way to do it." And he told me ultimately at the end of the day this is an issue of the spirit. This is a personal issue to wrestle with. This is not a salvific issue to take such a hard stance on, and I agreed with him.

And I don't... And, and l- and I have a lot of, I have a lot of sympathy for the pastor at the time, although I strongly disagree with how he handled it, although I believe it was not handled in humility, although I believe using the pulpit in that way is wrong. I have had to walk through some hard stuff just as the pastor of the church now, and I've made mistakes.

And, I think being in a new church where the traditions are totally different, where the leadership structure is totally different, trying to handle something that you personally have a really strong conviction about, I can understand why he decided to take such a hard stance on it. Although I strongly disagree with it, I have over the years begun to see maybe why he did, although I still feel like it was wrong.

So the church split, and they split hard. They lost over half their people within the course of just a few months. And then my wife and I were like, I don- we can't really do ministry here anymore. And we... I was actually just gonna leave and just go be a member somewhere and continue working at the school, 'cause I was an IT guy there.

And I was like, I'll just be faithful, a faithful member somewhere for a while and then see what the Lord has for me next. But then I was-- I had an old mentor of mine who was the BCM director Baptist Collegiate Ministry director at the time. He did my premarital counseling and he sat down with me and he said, "Brother," if you feel led to ministry, have you considered maybe doing it outside of Northwest Arkansas where you're not from and seeing what the Lord has for you and your wife?"

And so I met with a couple people to seek counsel and the only thing that we needed was for my wife to be close enough to a college so she could finish her degree. And then the Lord placed us in Southeast Arkansas, the exact opposite corner of the state. And they were three and a half, almost four wonderful years that we had there as newlyweds, like having to rely on each other.

And I'm honestly so grateful that happened because without that, I don't think I've ever would've stepped out of Northwest Arkansas and have learned like something else about living somewhere else, about being, like really having to rely more on the relationship with my wife. And we had our boys there and we made a lot of friends there, and I learned a lot about myself and about what it means to do ministry in that area.

And I think honestly, Greenland now is in a healthier place than they would've been if that never would've happened. And so I believe the Lord used even a sinful, hard situation for good.

So now I'm pastoring in that church . Yep.

move back to Greenland.

[00:52:16] dustin barton.: We served in southeast Arkansas for four years. And then we moved back in the area during COVID. So COVID was a really challenging time for everybody, but my family and I, we had we began to feel drawn out of that area, but didn't really feel or know where we were gonna end up.

We didn't know where the Lord was leading us next, and we just had some things happen with our family personally that just we felt like we needed to be closer to family during that season, especially as everything was shutting down, and we had two little babies. Our kids are only 13 months apart, so our two boys are a lot for someone to handle by themselves with the schools are shutting down, and daycares are shutting down, and I'm still working full time.

And we ended up moving back to northwest Arkansas. I had an opportunity to work for a Christian telehealth organization to help them with their IT stuff remotely.

then I began to put my resume out. I began to pray through what this looks like for me to pastor a church. And I got really far into the process with the church in Fayetteville. And then we shut down conversations because there was just some things doctrinally I didn't agree with and hard stances they took that I didn't agree should be hard stances.

And we just didn't really sit on the same page. And then I called a friend of mine and he told me, outside of First Baptist Greenland, man, I wouldn't consider another church right now because he knows how much I love First Baptist Greenland. And I believe that maybe someday the Lord would open the door for me to get to serve there again and to try to help the church heal.

Because at that point, they were still really downtrodden. The pastor who was there during the split was still pastoring there at the time. And not two weeks later, I kid you not, two weeks later, I get a phone call from my dad because he's a member there. And he goes, hey, Scott just turned in his resignation.

He said, I'm just calling you to let you know.

[00:53:59] mike rusch.: And I was like, okay.

[00:54:00] dustin barton.: And he said that two people in the church like immediately looked at my dad because they knew that like I wanted to pastor and be a lead pastor somewhere. And so I was like, okay dad, thank you. And then I called my buddy back and I'm like, you'll never guess what happened.

And I told him First Baptist Greenland is up. And Then I got a call a couple weeks later from the chairman of deacons who's, y- has been... He's known me since I was little. He and I have grown really close. I've discipled and pastored both of his grandkids. And and he and I had a, an honest conversation.

I told him, " Man, as much as I'd love to be at Greenland, this isn't where I'm supposed to be right now," and I actually told him no. Then months pass, and we get to the beginning of 20- what was it? '23, 2023, and my wife and I just can't shake Greenland off our hearts. We're just like, " Man," like I...

they, there's gotta be something there. I can't... We, like we both can't shake it. We both felt like this is where we're supposed to be next. So I called him back, and I told him, "Hey, I'd like to be considered for this role." And I met with the search committee had a good conversation with them.

But one of the things that I told them was if I was gonna come and pastor the church, that I would really wanna make some changes very early on, and I wanna make sure that we get some external help because we need some sort of partnership with other churches or something in order to survive, 'cause I don't want the church to be healthy just while I'm there.

I want it to be healthy far after I'm gone. And it was with that agreement that we felt like the Lord was leading us there, and they did, too. And so I started pastoring First Baptist Greenland almost three years ago,

[00:55:32] mike rusch.: so when you return, though these memories don't go away. Not for you, and probably not for many of the people that were there. And I'm assuming, because that pastor stayed, that this was the group that was probably agreed with that pastor. And so I don't know if that's true or not.

[00:55:48] dustin barton.: So half the church was there, half the body that remained. There, so there was only about 20 people. Half that group was there during all of that.

It was a very small group. They didn't agree with it, but they loved Greenland and loved that town so much that they felt like they couldn't leave. They felt like they needed to stay to be as faithful as possible, to try to help in the f- in, in, in an instant that maybe those things change or they begin to grow and be healthy again.

And so they actually stayed through all that. And I kinda saw that as a testament of, yes it's, sometimes it's wise to leave when things are hard, but sometimes you need to stay and be faithful. And if, honestly, if they didn't stay, I don't know if Greenland would've been open. I truly believe they would've had to close their doors.

And so this group was pivotal to keep that church where it is. And so I'm so grateful for that sacrifice and love and care they had. 'Cause they loved that church more than they loved their own preferences and desires and It's such an honorable thing, but-

[00:56:47] mike rusch.: Well- Yeah ... and I'm glad you shared that because I think it's important, because that's true of your story, too.

Yeah.

I mean, is it fair to say that where you are today is this church... Are you in a process of recovering from that? Or how do you view that as a, as one that's now tasked to, to lead forward? And obviously, you come from a biblical counseling background, so it sounds like maybe your whole life was designed to put you there. But yeah, how does, h- what's the context that you step back into that?

[00:57:15] dustin barton.: Yeah. I had a good conversation with the interim pastor, and he told me that this, the, that the body itself is pretty unified, but they all believe that they need to change, but they also need to grieve ' cause they've never fully grieved that loss.

And the first thing that, that I did coming in was I ensured that we had time to grieve that loss of so many people, 'cause I don't think the church had ever really been able to grieve that they don't look the same that they did eight, nine, 10 years ago. And then COVID happened, too, and that affected a whole lot of churches, especially First Baptist Greenland, 'cause they lost their Wednesday night ministry, like the one that had all those kids that would show up.

'Cause even after I had left and after the church had split, Wednesday nights were still the primary ministry point to where they could reach out to families and kids in that area and that had disappeared when COVID happened, and they never got it back. And my desire was that I want Greenland to earn its trust back with the community and be a place that people feel like they belong again, to be open again, to be involved again.

And I believe that because of my past relationship, me growing up in that town and having that trust, I think that helped a lot with helping to bridge that gap to make the changes we needed to make and to ensure that we were doing the work to earn the community's trust again so that they can come into our doors with open arms and invite us into conversations and dialogue about things as well.

And that was really the primary thing that I had in my mind even before... we try to grow as a church even before we do anything with our facilities. It was, "How do I earn the trust of the community again? How do I ensure that they know that our body is going to be different and treat things differently moving forward?"

And I didn't skirt around that issue when I would talk to people and I would talk about how we're trying to improve and move on from that. And because, like I said earlier I believe that if you don't talk about those things then you're bound to repeat those things again.

And we weren't gonna be a church that was gonna repeat past mistakes. We were gonna learn from them and grow from them.

[00:59:10] mike rusch.: As I listen to your story, I think one of the things we're trying to understand this season, and no surprise to anyone, the church's relationship in the community with policy, with politics this is in our public conversations all the time. Yeah. But this is something that you guys went through, as a community. Is it fair to say that this is a church that kind of, I don't know if you would call it a dance, but that this is a church that came really close to that fire and was burned by how would you characterize that?

[00:59:37] dustin barton.: I think that's a great way to phrase it. Yeah. I... we got we as a church, and I'll say we because I was I was a part of that. I was on staff there at the time. We got too close to the fire and got too involved. We took too hard of a stance on a political issue, and it burned us. Because there are, and there are things that, that pastors must address from the pulpit, like with issues of Imago Dei, how people are treated, how we care for people. We have to talk about those things. You can't look at scripture and not talk about it. You can't read James 1:27 and see true religion is to care for the widows and orphan, and not talk about the policies that support and do that. But it is never a church's, or I believe it should not be a church's job, or especially a pastor from the pulpit, to tell you how to vote, because that is such a personal and dynamic thing that the that scripture itself doesn't e- entirely tell you, "You need to vote this party. You need to vote that party."

In fact the... instead, it tells us that we are to honor our governing authorities because the Lord is the one that had put them there. And so we are to honor them and honor people's rights and abilities to vote, but to inform them in a way that they can make that decision through the conviction of their spirit, not being told by their pastor, "This is exactly how you should vote," from the pulpit.

Now, in a counseling setting or small group I am always happy to share what are my beliefs on certain things and share that. But when I'm at the pulpit, my responsibility is to steward people in learning God's word. My opinion should be very little, if not any. And so we got too close to the fire, and we definitely got burned.

And so I think because of that, now we are a lot more cautious when it comes to getting involved in anything that's even remotely political, because we wanna be as unbiased and caring and loving as possible to care for our neighbors well. And our neighbors may vote differently than one another, and we wanna be welcoming to them both.

power of leaders.

[01:01:25] monica kumar.: So I'm, like, incredibly heartened- To hear you say that, and I appreciate you sharing that because I think your own story about the dry experience that that Greenland went through says that's not a, that's not a t- a f- a position that is that is agreed upon- generally. Yeah and could not be. And so I'm really curious to hear because I do, one of the things for me that I grapple with a lot as I'm understanding my faith and un- specifically understanding how leaders help people to understand their faiths it feels like there's just so much power there that leaders have.

And and I think that I'm incredibly fragile when I think about what, how that power is w- wielded and used- Yeah ... in good ways and possibly problematic ways. So just hearing you speak to that is just really heartening.

And so I would love to maybe if you're if you're okay with this, I would love to hear from you, ... how is a way to talk about what is happening in places of power and in our voting booths and in our policies that, that does extend the duty of care to congregants but also not use that power in a way that, that can be problematic?

[01:02:44] dustin barton.: It's a really delicate balance because, a- and one thing I've found that has always been very helpful to me personally just in guarding that in myself is to not address things based on what I see on the news or what I see in the headlines, but when I'm preaching through different books or I'm preaching through different texts and passages, I can even talk about, like, how does this relate to our current world, and how does this relate to where we're walking through today?

So for example I preached through a minor prophet named Amos a few months ago. And that book addresses a lot of things that we see, like people in power like abusing those things to abuse others and hiding things under the rug. And so, um, you know, I think the challenge is like I would love from the pulpit to talk directly about hey you... a- and I'll just be candid, like the discussion about like the Epstein files, for example. Like, all that was happening while I was preaching the series, and I didn't plan it, by the way.

This was a, this was just was all happening at the same time. And so the temptation for me was to just like clearly call out like, hey, like here's the prime example of what I'm talking about right now. But I wanted to be- clear, but also nuanced enough to where that wasn't the only thing they're looking to. So like when I talked about that, I talked about it more of a way of we shouldn't hide any sin, 'cause it's not just what's happening within our world or our nation, but it's about what's happening personally in Greenland.

Greenland has had its history of people hiding stuff under the rug, especially when it comes to like school administrators and stuff like that. Or, other people in power. City officials and the mayor. And not to say that I'm calling out like the mayor or anything, but just saying if you have anybody in power, there's a temptation to r- throw something under the rug.

Whether you are talking about these the horrendous like files and the awful like pedophilia that happened with that situation, or you're talking about maybe like an elected official that embezzled a bunch of money, or you're talking about like a school administrator that had a unethical affair or something like that.

Whatever the case may be, like I wanna make sure that I address those things clearly without, without without turning it into some sort of commentary. Because, scripture is something that is supposed to speak into all different seasons. And, I think it is there's wisdom in addressing some of those things directly, but then I think there's also wisdom in being a bit more nuanced but yet having clarity.

'Cause it's also cowardly to not talk about those things, right? But it's just tough. And I'll be honest, I don't always get that right. I can't tell you how many times during that series in particular, there were certain things I really, really wanted to talk about, but I was just like, "Okay, is that my flesh wanting to do that, or am I really feel like I'm honoring the Lord in that discussion?"

Because it maybe speaks to people in different ways, and at the end of the day, like my sermons are meant to help God's word speak, not my own words speak. And so yeah, it's tough. I'll just tell you, it's tough.

[01:05:32] monica kumar.: Pastor Dustin, I feel like you are such an, like I see such a clear through line between where we started and where we are now, and it feels like a circle. Because your personal story of how you found your faith was around at the beginning saying and I'm paraphrasing, but basically saying, the people would sin, whether, like they committed murder or they like robbed something. It wasn't just looking at yourself and saying did I lie about that?"

Or- Yeah ... anything small. And that, and now I hear what you're saying is, when y- you talk about hiding, and you're saying, "Yes- But, yes, something like the Epstein files is such a problem, but also let's look in our homes and let's- Yes ... let's be really clear about who we are and what does it look like in Greenland?

What does it look like in our home? Yeah. What does it look like in our relationships? I just hear that authenticity all the way through, and I, it just, yeah I really appreciate that. Yeah,

[01:06:25] dustin barton.: I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, and it, it's, it, and, I'll tell you it's tough. It's really tough because it's...

and I wrestle with it, 'cause I, I wrestle with, what is my duty and responsibility in the pulpit when things are happening? How do I address them well, and how do I stick to the truth of scripture while also helping people to not... I don't know. I it's so challenging, right?

'Cause I don't wanna, I don't wanna, look at a speck in my brother's eye and ignore the log in my own. And I just, yeah it's tough. And there's some guys that get it right, there's some guys that get it wrong. And people that reel back from that, and then you see people that get way too involved in it, and so I think it's just something as we as imperfect humans try to steward that relationship well.

I'll never forget one of my mentors told me that no matter what you do, you're always preaching from the pulpit in sin. You're, you are a sinful human, broken being just like everybody else in that room. And one of my, one of my favorite theologians, R.C. Sproul, said, " I'm just one beggar pointing another beggar where to find bread."

And, I think that helps me a lot in understanding my responsibility and what my care is in the pulpit. And then also when to address those things, like in private conversation or in counseling or even in a small group. I think those conversations can be a lot more direct. But from the pulpit, my job is to point people to Christ and allow Him to do that work.

[01:07:42] mike rusch.: Pastor Dustin, gosh, w- we, this is like you came really close to that flame and got burned, and yet now you're on the other side of that, having to make those judgment calls about how close you wanna get to the flame, right?

And what you carry within that, the I would think it's fair to say the scars of what has happened in the past. And, I think as a pastor, too, it's really hard to navigate.

I love the fact that you called out your series on Amos and this relationship with power, and from your experience and the experience of the church, you have a l- unfortunately have a lot of experience with that.

But you also spent some time in Romans 13, and I was drawn to that because r- the first part of Romans chapter 13 is sometimes used, and this is on me, I'm not assigning this to anybody else in this way that the g- the government has this divine appointment and that whatever the government is doing, faithful Christians should follow along with that, almost in a way that kind of, and this is my characteri- you can correct me on this. You're the teacher here, not me. Sure. But almost in this way that it's out of our hands at that point, and that we should go along with that.

But your series as you went into Romans chapter 13 and I'm paraphrasing as well, but it's this idea of this, the citizenship in the Kingdom of God is the priority over this- citizenship here on Earth.

And I'm curious from your perspective and having to wrestle with the scars of power uh, being mismanaged and your own story of trying to understand how to navigate through this to speak from that position, sounds like you have something to offer all of us, and maybe those within the church, about how do you navigate through the balance of these things in trying to understand how do you interpret and lead a community, and how could you interpret and lead the larger community about how we think about navigating through this really complex situation between power in our state and our government, power in the church, and what that looks like to be a faithful follower of Jesus in these spaces?

[01:09:40] dustin barton.: Yeah. I would start by saying if we looked, look at Jesus and His life, Jesus Followed Roman authority. He, he followed the law. And when when he was... When he's asked about taxes, he says, "Give to Caesars what is Caesar's. Give to God what is God's." And then when he was being crucified and put on the cross, he went along with everything that was going on.

Even though he knew he was innocent, he still went along with what he was doing. Obviously 'cause he knew what that meant and knew what he was going into. But I think that served as a really good example of how Jesus followed the authority that was in place in the government at that time.

He didn't tell people to stop paying their taxes. He didn't tell people "Rise against the government," because they're not of the Jewish tradition, right? That's not what he did. He told them to honor them. He put the ear back on the Roman guard that Peter cut his ear off of.

And there was this care for them because they are also image-bearers of God. And so as a citizen of the kingdom of heaven, for those that belong to God and his family, we have a responsibility to live those things out well, which means that there is a balance in that where we should honor and respect our elected officials.

And the only time that we're really allowed to n- not question that, but to go against that, is that our allegiance comes first to God and then to our government. So if the government ever called us to do something that is blatantly against scripture, that is absolutely wrong, then it is our responsibility and duty to do the right thing.

I think about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, for example. I don't know if you're familiar with that name, but Dietrich Bonhoeffer, yeah he was he was involved in trying to trying to dismantle the Nazi government. And he was a German theologian and wrote so many incredible works.

But he was involved in the midst of that and ended up dying for his faith. And you could take a passage like that and go, "Oh Dietrich was being... he wa- he wasn't being obedient because he was not following after the authority." But no, when you see Nazi Germany killing people and doing so many awful things, you as a Christian have a responsibility as a citizen of the kingdom of God to protect the innocent and to do what is right.

And so he did the right thing by standing up against that and speaking out against that. And so that's where I think also we as citizens of the kingdom of heaven also need to keep our elected officials accountable, that if there are things that they are doing that are wrong or we believe are not right, we should speak into that, but also get involved in that.

I think it's good for those that love the Lord and love others well and seek to do that are also involved in government, not because, like- not because, I as a Christian faith, like I would love to see like more policies that are closer to my own beliefs. However, I also believe it's people's rights to, to do what they want, what they please is what makes this country so great, and freedoms.

And so I, I personally am not like, "Let's make the United States all Christians," right? Like I, I want people... I don't want people to be forced to that. I want people to choose the Lord out of joy and hope and sincerity. And so I think that it's a Christian's responsibility to ensure that people have those rights and privileges and are able to choose that and not be forced into that.

And I say a lot to say that's kinda where that balance is of, getting involved and speaking into it, but also being obedient to who God has put there and supporting and praying for them. Like for example if there is an elected official that I didn't vote for or I don't agree with, I don't, I shouldn't go around bashing their name or talking about how awful of a person they are.

I should be praying for them. I should be asking, " How can I help this person? How can I speak with them and treat them like they are a human being worth being loved?" Because they are. And also to not treat any elected official like they are God or they are some sort of deity, because they are not. They are a imperfect person just like we all are.

[01:13:11] mike rusch.: Keep talking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Pastor Justin, thank you. I couldn't articulate it better than I think than you could. I appreciate your perspective, and I think it carries weight just because of not only your position as leading a church, but you've walked through these roads of seeing how a balance in one direction or the other can be destructive to the community and destructive to people. And so I think that call that you're laying out there is yeah I'm thankful for that voice that, that you are, that you're sharing with us.

[01:13:39] dustin barton.: I appreciate that.

[01:13:40] monica kumar.: I think I, yeah I totally agree with Mike. And I think what I really appreciated, and it's something I have to work on, is the found- like you just laid a foundation of balance and mediation and just thoughtfulness in what you just shared and have shared throughout our conversation, and I just really that just really resonates, and I appreciate that so much.

Yeah. And I think as I'm thinking about, and it feels connected as I'm thinking about the things we've talked about I know that recently in a recent sermon you shared about a parable of the unforgiving servant. Yeah. And you drew a really clear line between forgiveness and reconciliation, and I have been reflecting on- That so much for our country and our people globally, but really I live here, I'm an American so nationally.

I'm thinking about how are we going to reconcile our country. Because quite frankly, I see and feel the polarization. Yeah. When I think about even just as someone who's, who moved here I don't know, 18, 20 years ago, when I think about the conversations that I was having in this country 20 years ago, and then 12 years ago when I moved here, and now.

I'm seeing it, and I'm not just... It's not just conversations, I'm seeing it on paper, I'm seeing it in articles I'm seeing our words change and our feelings towards each other change. Yeah. And so I have been meditating on reconciliation and our future because I am an optimist, and I'm always hopeful.

So I'm always thinking about... And it's actually one of the reasons why I was honored that Mike invited me into this podcast because, for me, this is a, this is an instrument for that. Yeah. And has been. Sitting down with people like you and having conversations that I would never be in a room with you perhaps otherwise.

It's a, it's an honor and a joy for me, and I appreciate that. So I think about forgiveness and reconciliation, and I would love for you to share y- that, the context of that sermon, and then and then your sort of your words and your leadership around being abused or feeling you've been harmed in a physical, emotional, spiritual way. And maybe the difference or how you hold forgiveness- ... versus, like reconciliation to what you had before.

[01:15:54] dustin barton.: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I'll kind of speak to, to the forgiveness aspect first 'cause I think that's where you start. So forgiveness is something that we do personally, right?

Like we can't force reconciliation. That requires two parties, but forgiveness only requires one. I think that we are often in this position where we are waiting for someone to say "I'm sorry" or to apologize in order to forgive them. But really we are the ones who chooses to for- choose to forgive somebody in our hearts.

Like we are the ones that harbor that. We... Someone could wrong us, and they could not think another thought about it, but then we harbor that with us for a long time, and it affects us and changes us and eats away at us. And so when God talks about forgiveness in scripture, it's always this act of you should forgive as you were forgiven, meaning that, a- again, not looking at- one another, but looking at ourselves and asking, "What have I been forgiven for?"

And really there's nothing that someone else can do to us that is more than we've ever done to God, yet He still forgave us and He showed that through the sacrifice and love of His Son where He didn't require anything of us in return 'cause we have nothing to offer. Instead, He forgive us and showed us grace and mercy.

That's what grace is, right? Grace is receiving something that we could never earn. And mercy is not receiving something that we absolutely deserve. And so that g- idea of grace and mercy has to tie into forgiveness to where if someone wrongs us, we shouldn't hold this bitterness and this anger in in them towards our hearts.

We need to let that go and forgive them. And that's something that we do 'cause it's not only... it's not something that they may ever see, but it's good and healthy for us to do that. And so in the parable of the unforgiving servant like the whole idea of that is to help people that are walking into the Kingdom of Heaven understand that our duty and responsibility is to be those who are forgiving when people wrong us.

And people will wrong us. That's going to happen. But we are called to forgive in almost a supernatural way. And like it's scattered all over. I think of Romans 12, Colossians 3, Ephesians 2. It's everywhere. We are called to forgive as Christ has forgiven us. But then reconciliation, right?

Reconciliation and forgiveness are two different things, and there's a passage that I believe really nails this on the head, and it's in Romans 12 where Paul says that, "You are to live at peace with all so far as it depends on you." So when it comes to reconciliation and forgiveness are not the same.

You can forgive somebody and not harbor bitterness and anger and resentment in your heart, but that doesn't mean that automatically that trust and that relationship is restored back to its original state. But God desires restoration. Ultimately, that's what the gospel is. The gospel is us being restored to a right relationship with God because of the sacrifice and love of His Son.

Not because of anything we did, but because of what He did for us. And there's work in restoration, meaning that, both parties have to be committed, and both parties have to do the work. I can do my end of the work with seeking to res- be in a restored relationship with somebody, but if they're not receptive to that or if they don't want it, then it may not happen, or that may look different.

So for example I'm a biblical counselor, so I talk to a lot of people that have been through some pretty hard stuff, infidelity, abuse, death, all sorts of things. And, one thing that I've seen in even marriage counseling is one spouse may cheat on another, and then they automatically expect everything to go back to normal.

It's no it may never go back to normal. A- and that's part of owning up to what you did, is that restoration may look like not you both getting back together, but it may be you being able to be in a place where trust is there again, right? And that takes time. That takes effort. And sometimes restoration is not possible.

If somebody is in a physically abusive relationship, for example, it would be wrong for me to tell them that, "You have to get back with that person right now." No, that's wrong. Do I want them to harbor bitterness and unforgiveness? Absolutely not. I want them to be free of that. But restoration is gotta be a work between the two of them.

It's not something that is absolutely required. But it is something that God desires, and so we wanna pursue that.

[01:19:59] mike rusch.: Pastor Dustin, thank you. I'm curious, as you... and you've been doing this the whole time, but I wanna maybe ask you outright if you had a single piece of maybe wisdom or experience what would you offer as a piece of wisdom maybe to our community, to Northwest Arkansas in this cultural moment? Yeah.

[01:20:14] dustin barton.: Yeah. I would actually, before I answer that, I'm gonna quote this passage, 'cause I think it's really important and applicable to what I'm about to say.

This comes from Philippians 2:3-4. It says, "Do nothing from self-submission or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you not look only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." And then Paul later on in that passage uses the m- the model of Christ as an example for us of what humility looks like.

And so what I would say is that we need to do the same. We need to hold people as more important than ourselves, and we need to be humble. And I think that we do that. If I could share any wisdom from the tradition that I grew up with the tradition that I hold very dearly, I would say to put others first and care for them well.

Loving God and loving others are not different playing fields. They're supposed to be equal. We're supposed to love God and love others. If we love others well, we love God well. If we love God well, we should love others well. You can't lose one and not have the other.

fear.

[01:21:09] mike rusch.: In every conversation we have I try to ask two questions. One is around fears and the other is around wholeness.

We ask these questions in a way to maybe expose our humanity- ... in some ways, that if there are others that are struggling or in fear, that maybe this is a way of connecting what we're all thinking about in these moments. And so when I say that fear, I'm curious, what are your fears for this place, for our community- within the cultural moment that we are in?

[01:21:36] dustin barton.: I'm honestly afraid that we're gonna lose the sense of diversity and communication and connectedness that we've grown to, to have in this area. One of the things that I've loved about living here and being in community with people is being able to have honest conversations about things that we disagree with, but coming away from the table still in fellowship. And I think that the landscape of our world is becoming more and more hostile to disagreement, and I think disagreement's what helps us to grow as human beings. It helps us to learn and thrive and grow as a community in hospitality. And I just I... My fear is that we are slowly losing that and losing what it means to be a community with commonalities that can disagree but are, at the end, unified.

wholeness.

[01:22:17] mike rusch.: The other side of that is this idea of wholeness. And we've been having conversations for years now trying to understand what is this idea of what community wholeness could look like. And given everything that we've talked about, I'm curious, when I use that word, what does wholeness look like to you?

[01:22:33] dustin barton.: Wholeness looks like to me is just feeling complete feeling like I have everything I need. And, I'll give you the... i'm gonna give you the stereotypical pastor answer. It's okay. You're a pastor. Yeah. I would expect some of that. That honestly, that wholeness for me comes from my relationship with Christ, that no matter where I live or what I do or what season I'm in, whether it be good or bad, that I know that my security is in Him and He is helping to transform me and make me more like Him each and every day, and that's where that comes from.

Helps me to be content. It helps me to be okay when things are not okay. It helps me to grieve well. It helps me to honestly have hope in the most hopeless of situations.

[01:23:07] mike rusch.: I would subscribe to that definition as well. So I'm gonna close unless you have anything that you would like to say, or do you wanna close?

[01:23:14] monica kumar.: No, you can close. Yeah. Yeah. I just really appreciated the, you're s- y- you're such a truthful- authentic person. I've just met you and that is the thing that just shines. There's, you have so m- you're such a kind person and it's been just honoring to be in this room with you, but- I appreciate that

your truthfulness is, and your sense of justice is just so overwhelmingly obvious. And I appreciate that, that you're impostering but also just as you as a human and in citizenship in this community. So thank you.

[01:23:49] dustin barton.: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Well,

[01:23:51] mike rusch.: Pastor Dustin, thank you for this time and for sharing a table for speaking into this conversation from your experience and your tradition. It means the world to us, and I'm hoping as people listen, they're finding yeah, that definition of wholeness and hope that you've laid out for all of us.

So thank you for being a part of it. It's been an honor.

[01:24:08] dustin barton.: Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you for giving me a voice and an opportunity to speak at the table.

[01:24:12] mike rusch.: So- Oh, it's been a gift. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[01:24:14] dustin barton.: Thank you.

episode outro.

[01:24:18] monica kumar.: As I reflect on what to share after this specific conversation, I find myself hesitating a bit, yet I'm also compelled to be radically honest . I will be honest. I didn't walk into this conversation neutral. I came in carrying assumptions. Assumptions about what a Southern Baptist pastor would believe, where the hard lines might be, and how much room there'd really be at a table for someone who looks and believes like me.

I very much don't share Pastor Barton's traditions and faith background. I could even say I'm as far from him as possible. I don't land in the same place he does on many things. And while I knew and I was confident that neither of us would be disrespectful, I did have an assumption that we would have a more polite check the box conversation.

And then we started talking. Pastor Barton shared about his childhood and being an angry 11-year-old in the way only children at that age can be, unsure if he even needed God. And I remember struggling with the same questions around that age myself, and going back and forth between not believing and having undeniable faith.

He said, "We need to be honest and humble to change and seek to be restored and to repent, because if we just ignore history, we're bound to repeat those things again and again." This reminded me so deeply of the words of my hero, Bryan Stevenson, who often speaks to proximity and being able to be close to discomfort before we can forgive and build change.

When Pastor Barton shared about quietly but consistently removing campaign signs from his own yard because he doesn't believe the pulpit should tell us how to vote, that left me nodding my head and heart in full agreement. The story he shared about his congregation splitting over an issue that could perhaps have been resolved through a less contentious route, it felt familiar in spirit to me.

It echoed countless conflicts I've witnessed or been adjacent to in my own life, professionally, personally, and politically. About wanting a church he loved take too hard a stance and break down the middle. He concluded the story by sharing that he returned to pastor that same split church, not to fix anything, but to support the grieving of what was, what could have been, and what is yet to be, and to facilitate really a path to healing.

I listened with conviction and intent. And somewhere in that conversation, we meandered from a gap I was expecting to feel to three people speaking and wondering about the limitless power of love, God, faith, and humanity. Pastor Barton loves the collaborative and community spirit of his faith tradition, and rejects, his words, when churches choose tradition over truth.

And I felt like I could replace church in that rejection with any other place of worship, and his words would continue to carry their truth for me.

I keep coming back to this conversation at different times in my day because it would've been so easy for his story to confirm what I walked in expecting. The ingredients were all there: the politics, the pulpit, the certainty that can move quickly into harm.

But what I learned and heard was Pastor Barton's great compassion for people and the grace he extends to all of our mistakes, including his own. What I'm left with and carry from this conversation is that this pastor's life and work focuses on ensuring that belonging is not conditional on full agreement.

So while my faith doesn't look or sound much like Pastor Barton's, I found so much ground to share. I heard about the beauty and humanity that this faith brings into so many people's lives, and that feels purposeful and important. I'm humbly grateful to Pastor Barton for taking this conversation to the place I hope to walk into with each episode of this season, a higher space that leaves me changed and full of hope.

Thank you for listening. This is The Underview, an exploration in the shaping of our place and our faith